codgi

iTrader: (22)

You could have gotten this information by simply digging through the suspension section or the motorsports section though. No reason to rathole on this....I am interested in the outcome of the testing even though I would like the testing methodology to be called out well in advance of the test itself so proper input can be given. This would ensure that the testing gives useful information.

golgo13

iTrader: (134)

Funny how my original post got deleted. This still should be in the suspension subforum.



WHAT SUSPENSION IS CURRENTLY ON YOUR EVO?
Bilstein MR + Swift Spec-R Coils (Whiteline RCK and Energy Suspension bushings waiting to go in)

WHAT PRICE DID YOU PAY FOR YOUR SUSPENSION?
No idea, like $300 for the used Bilsteins and like $350 for the coils?

IF YOU HAVEN'T BOUGHT A SUSPENSION YET WHAT PRICE RANGE ARE YOU LOOKING AT? 0-$500. $500-$1000. $1000-$2000. $2000+.
$1000-$2000

ARE YOU GOING TO RUN THE STANDARD SPRINGS RATES THAT COME ON THE COIL OVERS YOU INTEND TO BUY OR SOMETHING CUSTOM?
Custom. Thinking about 9k/10k, but need more seat time first.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN A CUSTOM SPRING RATE WILL YOU BE PAYING TO HAVE THE COIL OVERS RE-VALVED?
Only if needed. I want to purchase the coilovers matched to the spring rates.

WHAT ALIGNMENT SETTINGS DO YOU RUN/PLAN TO RUN AND DOES IT CHANGE FROM THE TRACK TO THE STREET?
The car is for track use, so I run one setting. -2/-1 camber, zero toe, zero thrust

WHAT SIZE TIRE WILL YOU BEING COMPETING ON?
275/40/17

WHAT TYPE OF TIRE WILL YOU RUN MOSTLY?
1. Street tire tread wear 139 and under.
2. Street tire tread wear 140 or over.
3. DOT race tire, like A6, C51 etc.
4. Full race tire.

Street tire tread wear 140 or over. Nitto NT01

David Buschur

iTrader: (53)

I asked for nothing to be deleted from this thread, multiple things were. I also asked for some input from some other guys to be added that may otherwise avoid this thread.

No matter how the test is done, what I test, who drives or the car that is used I will never (nobody will) please everyone, that is a fact. I'm not even going to try. The questions I asked are what are important to me for this test. As I get more and more involved in all this the tests very well could continue, just like they have for me for hundreds of engine/turbo/cam/fmic/fuel system etc., tests have over the last 20+ years. This is what I will, for now, call a first test.

For reference, no stock struts/spring set-ups will be tested. The time doesn't permit it and I am not interested. Let me explain why. In order to run a tall tire you have to have a coil over. In order to get a really fat tire on the car you have to run a coil over. I do ask though that if you guys are running springs on a stock style strut to please add your information as I will go back to this thread in the future if we do more testing.

Last, if anyone wants to just hate, please just do it elsewhere. There's no telling what this first test is going to cost. I don't need to ask anyone's opinion or supply any of the test result information to anyone. Instead I am going to pay whatever it costs to get this done, spend at least a day of my time with two other drivers, a ton of labor and beat the crap out of my car for this. Appreciate it or simply stay quiet, please.

Thanks for all the additional information, please keep it coming.

deeman101

iTrader: (34)

Dave, I think an important difference in the setup of the people that posted vs yours is the rear camber. We run around -1 and above, and you run 0. I think for your test you should really align for more camber in the rear especially and keep 0 toe. That way its more comparable to everyone else.

EVO8LTW

iTrader: (41)

WHAT SUSPENSION IS CURRENTLY ON YOUR EVO?

Ohlins Flags w/custom coils and stock valving, all Energy Suspension bushings, roll center kit and other Whiteline upgrades throughout.

WHAT PRICE DID YOU PAY FOR YOUR SUSPENSION?

$5000+

WHAT ALIGNMENT SETTINGS DO YOU RUN/PLAN TO RUN AND DOES IT CHANGE FROM THE TRACK TO THE STREET?

track: -3.5/-1.5 camber/0 toe
street: -1/-1.5 camber/0 toe (I have my own alignment tools to switch)

WHAT SIZE TIRE WILL YOU BEING COMPETING ON?

255 40 17 for street/track, 285 30 18 for autocross

WHAT TYPE OF TIRE WILL YOU RUN MOSTLY?
1. Street tire tread wear 139 and under.
2. Street tire tread wear 140 or over.
3. DOT race tire, like A6, C51 etc.
4. Full race tire.

1 for street, 4 for autocross

goforwand

iTrader: (132)

WHAT SUSPENSION IS CURRENTLY ON YOUR EVO? robispec KW Group-N

WHAT PRICE DID YOU PAY FOR YOUR SUSPENSION? lightly used; $5,000

IF YOU HAVEN'T BOUGHT A SUSPENSION YET WHAT PRICE RANGE ARE YOU LOOKING AT? 0-$500. $500-$1000. $1000-$2000. $2000+. If I were to change it would be $2,000+

ARE YOU GOING TO RUN THE STANDARD SPRINGS RATES THAT COME ON THE COIL OVERS YOU INTEND TO BUY OR SOMETHING CUSTOM? Custom from suspension vendor

IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN A CUSTOM SPRING RATE WILL YOU BE PAYING TO HAVE THE COIL OVERS RE-VALVED? Custom valving from suspension vendor at time of purchase

WHAT ALIGNMENT SETTINGS DO YOU RUN/PLAN TO RUN AND DOES IT CHANGE FROM THE TRACK TO THE STREET? -2.75 front camber; 6* front caster; -1.0 rear camber; 0 toe all the way around (track only car)

WHAT SIZE TIRE WILL YOU BEING COMPETING ON? 275/35/18

WHAT TYPE OF TIRE WILL YOU RUN MOSTLY?
1. Street tire tread wear 139 and under.
2. Street tire tread wear 140 or over.
3. DOT race tire, like A6, C51 etc. DOT race tire, like A6, C51 etc.
4. Full race tire.

David Buschur

iTrader: (53)

My car as I have said numerous times in different posts is not set up to autocross only. I leave my rear camber at 0 so it will rotate better and so I can drag race it. Negative camber in the rear kills the grip on a launch. I also can't use a heavy rear spring to help it rotate, also kills the launch, so this is my in between and best solution for a car that can do both autocross and drag.

Also, I only posted my set up to get the list started It will change for the testing as it needs to.

golgo13

iTrader: (134)

Thanks Dave, in for the results.

(Also, glad to see you posting on EvoM)

03whitegsr

iTrader: (8)

David, it might be more relevant for you to tell us what your end goal is.

You are looking for suspension setup information but one of the biggest items (alignment) you are currently gearing towards drag racing and tire life. If you don't use alignment settings that optimize the grip capability of the car/tire, you'll never get meaningful data.

Also, tire selection will have a huge impact on what works and what doesn't as the dynamic tire alignment is very dependent on body roll. With minimal body roll (like on a low grip tire), you get similar camber changes front and rear. Get body roll up with some sticky tires though and the rear gains camber where the front loses it and the balance of the car changes greatly.

At this point, I'm wondering if you are going to be looking for all out performance in the turns or the best compromise for a dual purpose car like yours?

RevMoto

iTrader: (19)

This is definitely in the wrong section and as stated. and might be overlooked by some of the suspension guru's. I still don't understand why you choose to sacrifice handling during autox and road course events with zero camber and even rates just for drag racing. It is your personal car but if it was me I would rather have my 60" suffer before anything.

Also what are you looking to do here? Are you testing multiple brands (ex: lower budget to higher budget) or are you testing spring rates? Is this test to help choose a coil over for autox/road course cars or to better your specific car? For this test will you tweak your camber settings and spring rates for test purposes?

WHAT SUSPENSION IS CURRENTLY ON YOUR EVO?Fortune Auto 500

WHAT PRICE DID YOU PAY FOR YOUR SUSPENSION?
1,100
IF YOU HAVEN'T BOUGHT A SUSPENSION YET WHAT PRICE RANGE ARE YOU LOOKING AT? 0-$500. $500-$1000. $1000-$2000. $2000+. My next set will be 2,000+

ARE YOU GOING TO RUN THE STANDARD SPRINGS RATES THAT COME ON THE COIL OVERS YOU INTEND TO BUY OR SOMETHING CUSTOM?I had the option to choose my rates which were 7k/9k for a mix of daily driving and track use. I then upgraded to swift 9k/11k

IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN A CUSTOM SPRING RATE WILL YOU BE PAYING TO HAVE THE COIL OVERS RE-VALVED?If I wasn't happy with the stock rates then I will do what is needed

WHAT ALIGNMENT SETTINGS DO YOU RUN/PLAN TO RUN AND DOES IT CHANGE FROM THE TRACK TO THE STREET?-3f/-1.5r

WHAT SIZE TIRE WILL YOU BEING COMPETING ON?235/45/17, 255/35/18, 275/40/17

WHAT TYPE OF TIRE WILL YOU RUN MOSTLY?
1. Street tire tread wear 139 and under.
2. Street tire tread wear 140 or over. RS3's
3. DOT race tire, like A6, C51 etc. Next tires are A6's
4. Full race tire.

David Buschur

iTrader: (53)

Guys, other than the fact my car is the test mule for this test, TAKE MY CAR AND THOUGHTS OUT OF THE EQUATION.

Maybe to ease up some of the criticism I am already getting I will put more information out there.

Right now I am talking with Jarrod Hoops and Eric Heller for two drivers. Eric owns NORA and all the timing equipment plus has access to the lot for the test. He is looking for an available date now. I wanted to use Jarrod car, which would be optimal, but he has it put away already for the winter. The best car to use would be on like his where a HUGE tire is possible to use. Since this isn't possible I put this poll up to figure out if it's even needed. I think the actual fact is from looking at the results so far most of the guys have a dual purpose street/autocross car. Most of them are running 255's. Most of them are on street tires. The reason for asking the questions is to figure out what people are doing besides myself and what they are running so I can try to target some of it. Impossible to make everyone happy, as I said. So let's see how all this goes over the next week or so and I can keep getting an idea of the most common use/set up and then try to implement that into the tests.

As for my car and giving up some on the 60', that may be fine for some guys but since my car makes 700+ whp and I'd really like to go 8's in it (9.04 being the best to date) giving up time in the 60' is the worst choice I can make, the 60' is absolutely critical. I'm also not so sure that by having my car at 0 rear camber and the springs at 8k to get it to rotate I am doing hurting myself over -1.5 and a much stiffer rear spring. That would be a hell of a good test right there and actually could/should be worked into all this.

Also, good Lord, I will report my thread and have it moved......that will be one less thing I need to take grief over. There is a lot of ungrateful people.

David Buschur

iTrader: (53)

Thread is moved....

Boltz.

iTrader: (42)

I'd be willing to add up my suspension when I have more time, but to help me fully understand whats going on here, would you mind explaining what you are looking to gain from these questions? I'm not sure what direction this is heading; are you planning to bring new suspension options to market?

One thing I wanted to add to our very brief cheap vs expensive suspension talk is that yes, a well setup car can go fast on cheap coilovers BUT we also have to be aware that the spring does a ton of the work. Even with garbage valving, a race car can go fast on a smooth track with a stiff spring rate because the dampers aren't needed as much. Fast transitions, unpredictable surface and sudden changes in grip are a few spots where a properly valved setup will shine in better composure also leading to greater driver confidence.

David Buschur

iTrader: (53)

I have explained more, up a few posts. Nothing new coming to market, just would like to prove/disprove some things.

03whitegsr

iTrader: (8)

Ok, gotcha. Well, for the auto-x guys, I think you can break it down into 2 main types of cars. At least in my area this is how it breaks down.

Street Touring
245 wide tire limit
140 tread life or higher
No offset bushings or modified suspension components to change geometry beyond caster/camber plates up front and OEM adjusters.
Camber of -2.5f/-1.5r for aggressive setups
Caster in the 3.5 to 5 range
10k spring rates the upper end of the scale for most
The majority of guys that like to auto-x but want to do it with a street car probably end up here due to the limited nature of the class keeping cost in check


STREET MOD and higher
Class minimum weight for street mod is 2820 without driver if you have a 2.0L, or 2940 with a 2.4L. If you stick to 275 wide tires (or narrower), you can shed an extra 200 pounds here, making minimums 2620/2740, respectively. Street mod has the highest minimum weight, the higher classes can get A LOT lighter.

275 wide or wider tires
R-comps or full race slicks
Just about anything goes on suspension provided you don't modify the chassis it's self (including subframes)
Camber of -3.5f/-2r for aggressive setups
Caster in the 3.5 to 7 range
Spring rates of 14k-16k not uncommon in the back
Purpose built cars that probably see under 5000 miles a year

Although it is a catch all class where guys with one wrong mod end up in it on accident.

While many of them will spend $3k+ for coilovers. I bet there is a fair share that if they could get away with some custom $1500 coilovers that worked extremely well, they would though. I'd love to spend $3k on coilovers, but I'd rather spend $1500 on something that works well and spend the other $1500 on something else for the car that overall would net better results then just having high end shocks.



If you want to bring in the road race guys to, I think you'll find they are probably some where in the middle of these two groups. A full blown auto-x setup would probably be a death trap on a 120mph sweeper. But they run serious tires that would probably overpower a street touring setup.