Dyno4mance EcuTeK tuning on Noize's car. Results inside
Apr 26, 2008, 03:00 PM
#31
ECU-based boost control is closed loop. The hardware on his car is not configured to allow the range needed to get a better handle on boost in the upper rpms. Don't mean to discount the performance of stand-alone boost controls. Just want to clarify.
Apr 26, 2008, 03:09 PM
#32
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Awesome job Dyno4mance! I'm lucky you guys are so close. You know I'll be there as soon as I get my X. Looks like I won't need as many bolt-ons as I thought. Makes my X purchase a no-brainer.
Apr 26, 2008, 04:11 PM
#33
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For all the hold more boost up top folks... sorry to say the stock solenoids are maxed out both at 100% from 5500 and up, still have the same tapper as we did on the mbc. There is still room left down low to fatten up the boost curve but not up top. A bleed could be used for a little more head room, but I just don't see much point in it and won't know if there is more power to be had till we try out a bleed setup.
I'll have Noize post up his graphs and a review, right now I gotta get back on the dyno
I'll have Noize post up his graphs and a review, right now I gotta get back on the dyno
Apr 26, 2008, 06:51 PM
#34
I'm back home. After nearly three hours in the car, I am happy to say that boost correction and ECU boost is the best thing ever. You can WOT boost in fifth, the car will jump up like an MBC for a quick moment to like 24psi, then it will immediately settle to like 21psi.
I tried and tried to get the car to throw the P1235 code for partial throttle overboost. It just won't do it.
I agree with others who have said that there is not a lot of room in the stock fuel system. Logging while tuning, we were seeing 87% IDCs up top with the pump gas tune.
As far as a using a bleed pill to increase boost, I don't really want to do that with my car. I'd rather just live with the taper. I used to map tons of XEDEs, and when we would pill them, the initial spike would get a bit more unstable. IMO, this turbo is just not quite in the league with the IX turbo, and its going to be rough to hold more boost up top without trickery.
I have a good friend with a stock IX that was down there this weekend. Bruce mapped his car too. He installed an MBC and tuned the car. Globally, I am running about a pound and a half more. The comparo is a bit unfair since I have a cat-back and he does not. That said, the car's powerbands are almost identical from spool until about 6000rpm. At that point, his car peaks at 265whp, then starts declining rapidly. Mine keepos pulling to the rev limiter. I overlayed the graphs, but didn't want this thread to turn into an IX vs X pissing match, since that's not what it is about. Also, the IX weighs less and would probably be faster everywhere with a cat-back.
I do think the head in this car is really nice. I love EcuTeK, and the only request I have of them right now is to give us control of the rev limiter. Since the car is peaking at the limiter and has not fallen any at that point, I would love to run it out to 7800 or so to be able to hold the power. I think drag racers will by far benefit the most from this, since even cars with light mods are riding the rev limiter through the traps. According to my gear calc, that would move this car from a 111mph potential in fourth to a 116mph potential in fourth. It doesn't take rocket science to see that with a good clutch and ample power, that 300rpm would really help make eleven second passes more likely.
Thanks for reading my rambles.
I tried and tried to get the car to throw the P1235 code for partial throttle overboost. It just won't do it.
I agree with others who have said that there is not a lot of room in the stock fuel system. Logging while tuning, we were seeing 87% IDCs up top with the pump gas tune.
As far as a using a bleed pill to increase boost, I don't really want to do that with my car. I'd rather just live with the taper. I used to map tons of XEDEs, and when we would pill them, the initial spike would get a bit more unstable. IMO, this turbo is just not quite in the league with the IX turbo, and its going to be rough to hold more boost up top without trickery.
I have a good friend with a stock IX that was down there this weekend. Bruce mapped his car too. He installed an MBC and tuned the car. Globally, I am running about a pound and a half more. The comparo is a bit unfair since I have a cat-back and he does not. That said, the car's powerbands are almost identical from spool until about 6000rpm. At that point, his car peaks at 265whp, then starts declining rapidly. Mine keepos pulling to the rev limiter. I overlayed the graphs, but didn't want this thread to turn into an IX vs X pissing match, since that's not what it is about. Also, the IX weighs less and would probably be faster everywhere with a cat-back.
I do think the head in this car is really nice. I love EcuTeK, and the only request I have of them right now is to give us control of the rev limiter. Since the car is peaking at the limiter and has not fallen any at that point, I would love to run it out to 7800 or so to be able to hold the power. I think drag racers will by far benefit the most from this, since even cars with light mods are riding the rev limiter through the traps. According to my gear calc, that would move this car from a 111mph potential in fourth to a 116mph potential in fourth. It doesn't take rocket science to see that with a good clutch and ample power, that 300rpm would really help make eleven second passes more likely.
Thanks for reading my rambles.
Apr 26, 2008, 08:01 PM
#35
It is closed loop. Like I said, its all in the hardware and not in the software. I bleeder or a pill in the right place will allow much greater range of boost (that the ECU can fully control if the same kinds of tables are available that are in the VIII/IX ROM).
Apr 26, 2008, 09:54 PM
#36
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Bleeder pills might help, but stop comparing it to a 8 or 9 rom. The USDM ones dont even have a closed loop one, and you have never even used Ecutek for the X.
As for control of the boost it seems like the ECU can control it just fine to it max.
I still think a closed loop, smart, etc EBC will be able to hold more boost at redline on a stock turbo then using the factory solinoid. AFAIK my guess is as good as any since no one has solid proof ATM.
Apr 26, 2008, 10:39 PM
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Edit: By the way.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...=1#post5593788
Looks like Lucas English and JB (Your hero's BTW) have held 24ps+ at redline and are looking to hold more
at redline on stock injectors. I'm done with you.
Wow you trolling me? How would you know? YOU DONT HAVE A EVO X nor have you used ECUTEK.
And I'm talking about a SMART EBC like HKS , Apex AVCR, etc, not the stock solinoid.
Do you even know which part of the forum you're on?? Get off my nuts son.
Not yet, but then I have not asked yet either
Noize's car is now running on ecu only boost control, no bleed pills, no changes to restrictors, 100% stock boost control setup tuned with EcuTek FlashCan Evo. He is out test driving it now. Power is the same as it was on the mbc. Hope is to avoid the P1235 code by using the stock boost control and not hitting full boost at part throttle....
He just walked back in the door, no cel codes this time out.
I still want to burn this in a bit and see how consitent the boost is with changes in weather.
For all the hold more boost up top folks... sorry to say the stock solenoids are maxed out both at 100% from 5500 and up, still have the same tapper as we did on the mbc. There is still room left down low to fatten up the boost curve but not up top. A bleed could be used for a little more head room, but I just don't see much point in it and won't know if there is more power to be had till we try out a bleed setup.
I'll have Noize post up his graphs and a review, right now I gotta get back on the dyno
Noize's car is now running on ecu only boost control, no bleed pills, no changes to restrictors, 100% stock boost control setup tuned with EcuTek FlashCan Evo. He is out test driving it now. Power is the same as it was on the mbc. Hope is to avoid the P1235 code by using the stock boost control and not hitting full boost at part throttle....
He just walked back in the door, no cel codes this time out.
I still want to burn this in a bit and see how consitent the boost is with changes in weather.
For all the hold more boost up top folks... sorry to say the stock solenoids are maxed out both at 100% from 5500 and up, still have the same tapper as we did on the mbc. There is still room left down low to fatten up the boost curve but not up top. A bleed could be used for a little more head room, but I just don't see much point in it and won't know if there is more power to be had till we try out a bleed setup.
I'll have Noize post up his graphs and a review, right now I gotta get back on the dyno
Last edited by Sky Evo X; Apr 27, 2008 at 12:50 AM.
Apr 27, 2008, 12:43 AM
#38
Sky, you are not understanding how the stock solenoid system works with ecu control. Put simply, the problem isn't the ecu's ability to control the boost, or the solenoid for that matter. The solution simply lies in a larger diameter bleed pill in the BCS line that lets the solenoid flow more pressure out when the WGDC is increased to prevent the boost pressure from pressing on the wastegate prematurely.
This can provide a flatter boost curve at high rpms but at the expense of overboosting at low rpms. However, I think it is more likely that the problem is that the turbo is running out of breath at high rpms and even by forcing taper to hold more at redline, it's going to be a diminishing returns situation. The turbo, being pushed past it's efficiency range, will start getting too hot and the compressed air will be disproportionately hot compared to the amount of charge air being sent to the intercooler.
This will heat soak the intercooler causing power losses and inconsistent power delivery. EGTs will also go up and so on and so on. Now, there could possibly be another psi or 2 left in the turbo at high rpms before it reaches this point, but with how well the head flows and how willing the car is to rev because of the "square" bore and stroke, the X keeps making power even after the boost falls so it doesn't matter too much anyway.
Pretty soon we will see some people trying the larger bleed pill in the BCS line trick, or a stiffer wastegate and that will tell us if the turbo is flow limited at 17-18 psi at redline or if there's a couple of psi that can be safely added. We all find out soon enough. I hope that this answers your question. Cheers.
This can provide a flatter boost curve at high rpms but at the expense of overboosting at low rpms. However, I think it is more likely that the problem is that the turbo is running out of breath at high rpms and even by forcing taper to hold more at redline, it's going to be a diminishing returns situation. The turbo, being pushed past it's efficiency range, will start getting too hot and the compressed air will be disproportionately hot compared to the amount of charge air being sent to the intercooler.
This will heat soak the intercooler causing power losses and inconsistent power delivery. EGTs will also go up and so on and so on. Now, there could possibly be another psi or 2 left in the turbo at high rpms before it reaches this point, but with how well the head flows and how willing the car is to rev because of the "square" bore and stroke, the X keeps making power even after the boost falls so it doesn't matter too much anyway.
Pretty soon we will see some people trying the larger bleed pill in the BCS line trick, or a stiffer wastegate and that will tell us if the turbo is flow limited at 17-18 psi at redline or if there's a couple of psi that can be safely added. We all find out soon enough. I hope that this answers your question. Cheers.
Last edited by STi2EvoX; Apr 27, 2008 at 12:46 AM. Reason: typo
Apr 27, 2008, 12:51 AM
#39
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Sky, you are not understanding how the stock solenoid system works with ecu control. Put simply, the problem isn't the ecu's ability to control the boost, or the solenoid for that matter. The solution simply lies in a larger diameter bleed pill in the BCS line that lets the solenoid flow more pressure out when the WGDC is increased to prevent the boost pressure from pressing on the wastegate prematurely.
This can provide a flatter boost curve at high rpms but at the expense of overboosting at low rpms. However, I think it is more likely that the problem is that the turbo is running out of breath at high rpms and even by forcing taper to hold more at redline, it's going to be a diminishing returns situation. The turbo, being pushed past it's efficiency range, will start getting too hot and the compressed air will be disproportionately hot compared to the amount of charge air being sent to the intercooler.
This will heat soak the intercooler causing power losses and inconsistent power delivery. EGTs will also go up and so on and so on. Now, there could possibly be another psi or 2 left in the turbo at high rpms before it reaches this point, but with how well the head flows and how willing the car is to rev because of the "square" bore and stroke, the X keeps making power even after the boost falls so it doesn't matter too much anyway.
Pretty soon we will see some people trying the larger bleed pill in the BCS line trick, or a stiffer wastegate and that will tell us if the turbo is flow limited at 17-18 psi at redline or if there's a couple of psi that can be safely added. We all find out soon enough. I hope that this answers your question. Cheers.
This can provide a flatter boost curve at high rpms but at the expense of overboosting at low rpms. However, I think it is more likely that the problem is that the turbo is running out of breath at high rpms and even by forcing taper to hold more at redline, it's going to be a diminishing returns situation. The turbo, being pushed past it's efficiency range, will start getting too hot and the compressed air will be disproportionately hot compared to the amount of charge air being sent to the intercooler.
This will heat soak the intercooler causing power losses and inconsistent power delivery. EGTs will also go up and so on and so on. Now, there could possibly be another psi or 2 left in the turbo at high rpms before it reaches this point, but with how well the head flows and how willing the car is to rev because of the "square" bore and stroke, the X keeps making power even after the boost falls so it doesn't matter too much anyway.
Pretty soon we will see some people trying the larger bleed pill in the BCS line trick, or a stiffer wastegate and that will tell us if the turbo is flow limited at 17-18 psi at redline or if there's a couple of psi that can be safely added. We all find out soon enough. I hope that this answers your question. Cheers.
-__-
I get what you are saying just fine.
I sent you a PM. I don't want to clutter up this post anymore then I have.
Apr 27, 2008, 01:06 AM
#40
Sky, you are not understanding how the stock solenoid system works with ecu control. Put simply, the problem isn't the ecu's ability to control the boost, or the solenoid for that matter. The solution simply lies in a larger diameter bleed pill in the BCS line that lets the solenoid flow more pressure out when the WGDC is increased to prevent the boost pressure from pressing on the wastegate prematurely.
This can provide a flatter boost curve at high rpms but at the expense of overboosting at low rpms. However, I think it is more likely that the problem is that the turbo is running out of breath at high rpms and even by forcing taper to hold more at redline, it's going to be a diminishing returns situation. The turbo, being pushed past it's efficiency range, will start getting too hot and the compressed air will be disproportionately hot compared to the amount of charge air being sent to the intercooler.
This will heat soak the intercooler causing power losses and inconsistent power delivery. EGTs will also go up and so on and so on. Now, there could possibly be another psi or 2 left in the turbo at high rpms before it reaches this point, but with how well the head flows and how willing the car is to rev because of the "square" bore and stroke, the X keeps making power even after the boost falls so it doesn't matter too much anyway.
Pretty soon we will see some people trying the larger bleed pill in the BCS line trick, or a stiffer wastegate and that will tell us if the turbo is flow limited at 17-18 psi at redline or if there's a couple of psi that can be safely added. We all find out soon enough. I hope that this answers your question. Cheers.
This can provide a flatter boost curve at high rpms but at the expense of overboosting at low rpms. However, I think it is more likely that the problem is that the turbo is running out of breath at high rpms and even by forcing taper to hold more at redline, it's going to be a diminishing returns situation. The turbo, being pushed past it's efficiency range, will start getting too hot and the compressed air will be disproportionately hot compared to the amount of charge air being sent to the intercooler.
This will heat soak the intercooler causing power losses and inconsistent power delivery. EGTs will also go up and so on and so on. Now, there could possibly be another psi or 2 left in the turbo at high rpms before it reaches this point, but with how well the head flows and how willing the car is to rev because of the "square" bore and stroke, the X keeps making power even after the boost falls so it doesn't matter too much anyway.
Pretty soon we will see some people trying the larger bleed pill in the BCS line trick, or a stiffer wastegate and that will tell us if the turbo is flow limited at 17-18 psi at redline or if there's a couple of psi that can be safely added. We all find out soon enough. I hope that this answers your question. Cheers.
Apr 27, 2008, 09:34 AM
#41
The Evo X has a pill in the boost hose assembly on the turbo side. That pill has an orifice that is too large. That is why dyno4mance maxxed out the WGDC tables from 5500 rpm and up and still had boost taper. Using a pill with a smaller orifice would allow the tuner to lower the WGDC numbers and hold more boost from 5500 rpm on. That will reduce boost taper.
We had plenty of room for more boost in the midrange in the duty cycle tables. I bet we could hit 30psi if we wanted to. The amount you have to wick up top is even more than an old 03 Evo VIII turbo with the 9.8 hotside. Once we got past a certain percentage, it just stops responding. At that point, the only way to make a little more boost up top is to run lots more in the middle, and the law of diminishing returns sets in bigtime. Outside of ECU boost control, with the stock pill out of the line completely using a manual boost controller, we ran over 24psi in the middle a couple times, and STILL dropped under 17psi at peak power levels. A IX will hold 2-3psi better with this same Hallman MBC. Obviously the taper is 95% because the size of the turbo. If I put a GT3076R on the car, I could hit 25psi in the middle and hold it to the rev limiter with substantially less wastegate duty percentage in the maps, stock pill and all. I know you already probably know all this.
You could change pills and get the stock turbo to work its azz off to hold a tiny bit more boost at redline, but what's the point? Its just not efficient up there. Make the power with timing instead. When the breathing is opened up a little more, it won't be as much of an issue. All the car has is a cat-back.
Last edited by Noize; Apr 27, 2008 at 12:43 PM.
Apr 27, 2008, 10:09 AM
#42
The pill that I was referring to is the one close to the solenoid, which is what allows boost pressure to escape out the vent line when the solenoid opens from WGDC mapping. The larger diameter of this pill, the more pressure can escape from the solenoid faster when it opens, preventing it from travelling down the line to the wastegate. Understand? Here, this is from an old evo 9 thread that explains it quite well:
wrcwannabe
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Yes there are two pills.
Here is how I look at the system......the pill at the turbo is the main control over the boost. Think of the line as being a boost leak....removing the pill allows a lot of air to escape, limiting boost. Why only ten psi ??? thats what the wastegate actuator spring pressure is..
Place a tiny pill ( small ID ) next to the turbo and you can buld a lot of pressure quickly because the small pill wont allow much pressure to escape.
OK on to the solenoid pill....why does removing it or making the pill ID bigger allow for more boost? the line after the turbo pill splits and goes 2 ways...one to the BCS and the other to the wastegate ( WGA ) . OK then pressure applied to the WGA opens the wastegate.....so reducing the air pressure to the WGA allows it to stay closed longer. To do this you need to bleed off the air quickly. The BCS does this by staying open more ( WGDC ) Having a pill at the BCS allows the air pressure to build up at the WGA and open it. So you have to increase the duty cycle to get rid of it. Having no pill allows more air to be bled quickly so you may spike higher.
It is a balancing act...small pill at turbo ( #60 drill size ) and a #56 drill pill at BCS allows 24-27 psi. If you then take the BCS pill out, you can easily hit 30 psi ( not recommended ) crazy overboost . Putting a #60 at turbo with a #58 at BCS limits boost to 20-22 psi. This is because the pressure is diverted to the WGA and helps open it. You can use the WGDC to increase the bleed off and stabilize the boost more.
For example using a #58 turbo pill and a # 54 BCS pill you would start out at 10-20% WGDC at 2500 rpm and increase slowly to get peak boost. Make all cells same from 2500 up to 7500. If you hit 22 psi at say 40% duty cycle at 3500 and the boost tapers to 15 psi at 7000 , then increase the WGDC above 3500 to remove some of the taper. ie 50, 60, 70 , 80 , 90 100 going up to 7500 rpm.
Last edited by STi2EvoX; Apr 27, 2008 at 10:18 AM.
Apr 27, 2008, 01:59 PM
#45
NJ1266, I believe that this is how all BCS systems work, and just because the X uses a twin solenoid as opposed to the single one on the 9 doesn't mean that it should be any different. Obviously there is one at the turbo/wastegate junction as always, but there should still be a second one at the solenoid, or in this case a second and third one at the solenoids. I will look into it and see what I can find.
Last edited by STi2EvoX; Apr 27, 2008 at 02:12 PM.