Aftermarket reflashes vs. Piggybacks/chips/SAFCs. Technical info for X owners.
Jul 12, 2008, 07:12 PM
#1
Aftermarket reflashes vs. Piggybacks/chips/SAFCs. Technical info for X owners.
With a few options on the table already and several more on the horizon, I thought this could be a great technical thread where various people who are interested could contribute information for the good of the community.
There will inevitably be people who are ardent fans on either side viewing this thread, and I ask that if you post, that you please pour your opinions into technical information rather than flaming or personal attacks. There are some good points on both sides that should be examined and fleshed out.
I'll start off by saying that I used to be a huge piggyback supporter in the form of the Vishnu XEDE. For the Evo VIII, it was an early product on the market and it was a breeze to tune. It was one of the first few solutions that allowed end user customization and full control of the maps, and that sold me by itself. Mind you that not all piggybacks are open to end users. Some tuners lock the tunes to end users due to the fact that someone without experience could manipulate maps in such a way that would damage the car. That's obviously a pain for the vendor, and it makes sense to not unlock that ability to everyone.
A piggyback is like an equalizer, or more correctly an interceptor. This means you are able to modify the signals the MAF reads, place whatever correction you deem necessary on them, and the new values "trick" or "equalize" the ECU into executing your commands. This often works with great results! You can typically modify fueling and timing, but some piggybacks even have independent boost control and extra inputs/outputs to control other features if the developer deems them worthy. A pro case for a piggyback is that they are not detectable by the dealer because of this. Simply remove the unit and the car reverts back to stock.
Edit: Another thing I loved about my XEDE was that it could store two maps. I had a pump gas and a race gas map, and that was a really nice feature to have. Since it controlled boost, I had front to back different maps in the car for the different types of fuel. The car was optimized well in my opinion.
The last thing that made my XEDE decent was that some of the things it could not control were eventually controlled by a reflash anyway, more on that later.
There will inevitably be people who are ardent fans on either side viewing this thread, and I ask that if you post, that you please pour your opinions into technical information rather than flaming or personal attacks. There are some good points on both sides that should be examined and fleshed out.
I'll start off by saying that I used to be a huge piggyback supporter in the form of the Vishnu XEDE. For the Evo VIII, it was an early product on the market and it was a breeze to tune. It was one of the first few solutions that allowed end user customization and full control of the maps, and that sold me by itself. Mind you that not all piggybacks are open to end users. Some tuners lock the tunes to end users due to the fact that someone without experience could manipulate maps in such a way that would damage the car. That's obviously a pain for the vendor, and it makes sense to not unlock that ability to everyone.
A piggyback is like an equalizer, or more correctly an interceptor. This means you are able to modify the signals the MAF reads, place whatever correction you deem necessary on them, and the new values "trick" or "equalize" the ECU into executing your commands. This often works with great results! You can typically modify fueling and timing, but some piggybacks even have independent boost control and extra inputs/outputs to control other features if the developer deems them worthy. A pro case for a piggyback is that they are not detectable by the dealer because of this. Simply remove the unit and the car reverts back to stock.
Edit: Another thing I loved about my XEDE was that it could store two maps. I had a pump gas and a race gas map, and that was a really nice feature to have. Since it controlled boost, I had front to back different maps in the car for the different types of fuel. The car was optimized well in my opinion.
The last thing that made my XEDE decent was that some of the things it could not control were eventually controlled by a reflash anyway, more on that later.
Last edited by Noize; Jul 12, 2008 at 07:18 PM.
Jul 12, 2008, 07:16 PM
#2
SAFCs to me are a huge downgrade from piggybacks. The only thing an SAFC can control is fueling, and by virtue of altering the MAF signal, timing. The problem here is that you cannot reduce timing with an SAFC, so you are advancing timing while you are pulling fuel out. This is possibly an acceptable solution for a full race gas tune, but not for a street car in my opinion. There are too many compromises, possibility of danger, and the inability to achieve a "perfect" tune.
The advantage of an SAFC is that they are super affordable, but the old addage, "you get what you pay for", applies strongly here.
The advantage of an SAFC is that they are super affordable, but the old addage, "you get what you pay for", applies strongly here.
Jul 12, 2008, 07:58 PM
#3
After the VIII, I switched to an Ecuflash tune on my IX and was happier with the results. The reflash allowed more complete and precise control of multiple maps, whereas the piggyback had root control, but no independent control of every map.
The coolest thing about the reflash, though, was that it offered greater control of every facet of the ECU. There were a lot of things it could do that the piggyback could not, such as allow tailoring of all fueling maps, all timing maps, and all variable cam gear (Mivec) maps. With the advent of Ecuflash, anyone with an $85 Tactrix cable could reflash between a pump gas map, a race gas map, a dedicated meth map, valet map, etc.
Right now, we don't have Ecuflash, so the cost of EcuTeK is prohibitive to some. The fact that the end user cannot manipulate maps in EcuTeK is prohibitive to others. However, it should be noted that a locked piggyback is no different in this regard. If and when Ecuflash hits the mainstream market for the X, the EcuTeK cars will be able to go over to Ecuflash maps if they choose to.
Here's my pro case for running a reflash on your X:
1) Rev limiter control (power): This is an awesome and needed feature with the X in my opinion. This engine has proven to continue making power after the 4G63 has checked out at very high RPM. This is a square motor, and there is no reason we should not take advantage of that. With full exhaust and a custom tune on the stock turbo, my car is making peak power its peak power from 6200rpm all the way to the modified rev limiter of 7903rpm. The car never varies more than 5whp in this entire range, and the absolute peak is at 6800. To say that the car is rewarding to rev is an understatement.
2) Rev limiter (drag racing): This is a huge one. The X is a heavy girl, and Mitsu used identical gear ratios from the IX and put in a shorter final drive ratio. What this means to you is that you will have to shift to fifth in the quarter mile if you are making good power, and that sucks, because it will absolutely crush your ET and trap speed potential. In fourth gear, here are the speeds at these RPM: 7000 (redline)-104mph; 7500rpm (factory rev limiter)-111.8mph; 7903rpm (where my car is flashed/modified)-117.8mph. As you can see, the factory rev limiter will barely take you through the traps on the limiter in fourth on a medium modified X. 7900 gives you 6mph more, and makes these aftermarket FP and Blouch turbos a lot more appealing for drag racing results.
3) Mivec control- EcuTeK, and I'm sure WORKS (and Ecuflash when it is available) have full control of Mivec. This is an important thing for easy power. With Mivec tuning on the intake cam alone, I made 30 wheel torque in the middle in my Evo IX. The X has control of both cams, and reflash tuners are just starting to tap the potential of exhaust cam manipulation for more power and torque everywhere in the powerband due to vast adjsutability. No piggyback I have seen has yet bothered to intercept Mivec, but it should be possible with a little effort and R&D. If you want the full potential from tuning in your X, its essential, as all it will do is increase results further when mapped in tandem with fueling, timing, and boost.
4) ECU boost control- Speaking of boost control, I started out with an MBC in my car, and it just flat out sucked. I got partial throttle overboost codes and no custom tailoring of the map. With ECU boost control, my car sees 23psi in the middle and tapers to around 16psi by 7900rpm. The beauty of ECU boost control is boost correction, so no sustained spikes in high gears, and no OBDII trouble codes from partial throttle overboost.
5) Custom tailoring of all stock maps- This was the nail in the coffin for me. When I first got to play with Ecuflash when it came out, the amount of fine tuning we were missing out on with a piggyback blew my mind. Rev limiter, stationary limiter, high octane fueling map, low octane fueling map, high octane timing map, low octane timing map, Mivec maps, boost maps, injector scaling, and so much more.
6) CEL fixes- EcuTeK now has a workaround for the partial throttle overboost code. I didn't have the shop I use flash it yet, because I'm not using a MBC and I don't trigger it seeing only a peak of 23psi. At somwehat higher boost levels than that, this code definitely will trigger if data is not changed in the ECU.
7) Knock logging in tuner software- Its nice to have the tuner checking his work, whether it be real time tracing like EcuTeK, or an independent program like Evoscan or Mitsulogger.
I'm sure there is more I'll think of to contribute later.
The coolest thing about the reflash, though, was that it offered greater control of every facet of the ECU. There were a lot of things it could do that the piggyback could not, such as allow tailoring of all fueling maps, all timing maps, and all variable cam gear (Mivec) maps. With the advent of Ecuflash, anyone with an $85 Tactrix cable could reflash between a pump gas map, a race gas map, a dedicated meth map, valet map, etc.
Right now, we don't have Ecuflash, so the cost of EcuTeK is prohibitive to some. The fact that the end user cannot manipulate maps in EcuTeK is prohibitive to others. However, it should be noted that a locked piggyback is no different in this regard. If and when Ecuflash hits the mainstream market for the X, the EcuTeK cars will be able to go over to Ecuflash maps if they choose to.
Here's my pro case for running a reflash on your X:
1) Rev limiter control (power): This is an awesome and needed feature with the X in my opinion. This engine has proven to continue making power after the 4G63 has checked out at very high RPM. This is a square motor, and there is no reason we should not take advantage of that. With full exhaust and a custom tune on the stock turbo, my car is making peak power its peak power from 6200rpm all the way to the modified rev limiter of 7903rpm. The car never varies more than 5whp in this entire range, and the absolute peak is at 6800. To say that the car is rewarding to rev is an understatement.
2) Rev limiter (drag racing): This is a huge one. The X is a heavy girl, and Mitsu used identical gear ratios from the IX and put in a shorter final drive ratio. What this means to you is that you will have to shift to fifth in the quarter mile if you are making good power, and that sucks, because it will absolutely crush your ET and trap speed potential. In fourth gear, here are the speeds at these RPM: 7000 (redline)-104mph; 7500rpm (factory rev limiter)-111.8mph; 7903rpm (where my car is flashed/modified)-117.8mph. As you can see, the factory rev limiter will barely take you through the traps on the limiter in fourth on a medium modified X. 7900 gives you 6mph more, and makes these aftermarket FP and Blouch turbos a lot more appealing for drag racing results.
3) Mivec control- EcuTeK, and I'm sure WORKS (and Ecuflash when it is available) have full control of Mivec. This is an important thing for easy power. With Mivec tuning on the intake cam alone, I made 30 wheel torque in the middle in my Evo IX. The X has control of both cams, and reflash tuners are just starting to tap the potential of exhaust cam manipulation for more power and torque everywhere in the powerband due to vast adjsutability. No piggyback I have seen has yet bothered to intercept Mivec, but it should be possible with a little effort and R&D. If you want the full potential from tuning in your X, its essential, as all it will do is increase results further when mapped in tandem with fueling, timing, and boost.
4) ECU boost control- Speaking of boost control, I started out with an MBC in my car, and it just flat out sucked. I got partial throttle overboost codes and no custom tailoring of the map. With ECU boost control, my car sees 23psi in the middle and tapers to around 16psi by 7900rpm. The beauty of ECU boost control is boost correction, so no sustained spikes in high gears, and no OBDII trouble codes from partial throttle overboost.
5) Custom tailoring of all stock maps- This was the nail in the coffin for me. When I first got to play with Ecuflash when it came out, the amount of fine tuning we were missing out on with a piggyback blew my mind. Rev limiter, stationary limiter, high octane fueling map, low octane fueling map, high octane timing map, low octane timing map, Mivec maps, boost maps, injector scaling, and so much more.
6) CEL fixes- EcuTeK now has a workaround for the partial throttle overboost code. I didn't have the shop I use flash it yet, because I'm not using a MBC and I don't trigger it seeing only a peak of 23psi. At somwehat higher boost levels than that, this code definitely will trigger if data is not changed in the ECU.
7) Knock logging in tuner software- Its nice to have the tuner checking his work, whether it be real time tracing like EcuTeK, or an independent program like Evoscan or Mitsulogger.
I'm sure there is more I'll think of to contribute later.
Jul 12, 2008, 10:00 PM
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Good Info,
I would like to add a couple Pro's for the piggy-back / interceptors.
1.) Boost control. Mitsu has always been behind subaru in terms of how the stock ecu controls boost. It does seem that mitsu has made some improvements with the X though. There are a number of piggy-backs on the market that do full P.I.D. based boost control. Unfortunately for all the XEDE guys out there, the XEDE is old school technology and does not or did not do P.I.D. based boost control, just straight duty cycle with no feedback loop at all so it had all the downfalls of a manual boost controller (drastic changes in boost depending on temperature).
2.) Map switching, I know you already mentioned this but when the map switch trigger is user configurable, it gives you a lot of options like tying the map switch into your meth kit and failsafe so that when you don't want to run meth or you have a system fault, the system can revert to the "safe" pump gas map.
In the end I think the best solution often combines both a reflash (since there are just way too many things you cannot control with a piggy back) and some type of piggy back. I ran a similar setup on my VIII with EcuFlash tuned ECU and a dual map piggy back with P.I.D based boost control. This was all tied in with my Aquamist HFS-5 so that I had just one button to push to switch between meth and no meth and also if there was a failsafe the system would revert to the base map. The base map was zeroed out except for boost control so the pump tune was done on EcuFlash and the meth tune was done on the piggy back. In this scenario, the limitations of the piggy back were not such a big deal since pulling fuel also added timing and that was what I wanted when running meth.
I would like to add a couple Pro's for the piggy-back / interceptors.
1.) Boost control. Mitsu has always been behind subaru in terms of how the stock ecu controls boost. It does seem that mitsu has made some improvements with the X though. There are a number of piggy-backs on the market that do full P.I.D. based boost control. Unfortunately for all the XEDE guys out there, the XEDE is old school technology and does not or did not do P.I.D. based boost control, just straight duty cycle with no feedback loop at all so it had all the downfalls of a manual boost controller (drastic changes in boost depending on temperature).
2.) Map switching, I know you already mentioned this but when the map switch trigger is user configurable, it gives you a lot of options like tying the map switch into your meth kit and failsafe so that when you don't want to run meth or you have a system fault, the system can revert to the "safe" pump gas map.
In the end I think the best solution often combines both a reflash (since there are just way too many things you cannot control with a piggy back) and some type of piggy back. I ran a similar setup on my VIII with EcuFlash tuned ECU and a dual map piggy back with P.I.D based boost control. This was all tied in with my Aquamist HFS-5 so that I had just one button to push to switch between meth and no meth and also if there was a failsafe the system would revert to the base map. The base map was zeroed out except for boost control so the pump tune was done on EcuFlash and the meth tune was done on the piggy back. In this scenario, the limitations of the piggy back were not such a big deal since pulling fuel also added timing and that was what I wanted when running meth.
Jul 13, 2008, 08:04 AM
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What do you guys think of the Accessport device? Not only dose it flash the ECU it can also hold several maps. Perrin and Al wth Dynoflash are both tuners with Accessport. I dont know if it will control as many things as Eccutek when it comes out, but it seems like an idea product. You get the option of holding mutliple maps with hopefully something that can control the who ECU like Eccutek. Only problem is it may not be out untill EVO XI comes out lol.
Jul 13, 2008, 08:43 AM
#6
Here is a great link from Turbo Magazine that talks all about the pros and cons of the three main choices out there; piggybacks, reflashes, and standalones. http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/08...ing/index.html
I personally don't like piggy backs, as they just don't offer enough control and I prefer modifying the ecu at the source. To me this is a much more elegant and efficient way of tuning. To me it's kind of like treating a disease by treating symptoms vs attacking the source. Which one's more effective? Ok, maybe not the best analogy, but you know what I mean.
Standalones are great for race cars, but tend to be difficult to tune because you have to program EVERYTHING, not just work off the stock programming that's already been done for you by mitsu. Partial throttle, safety parameters, you name it... you gotta do it. Yikes! Plus, they're extremely expensive and completely unnecessary until the car is making such huge power levels that the stock maf is overwhelmed. Then at that point a standalone and speed density sensor are unfortunately the only way to go.
Read the article in the link though, I think some of you will find it helpful. Good luck in making the best decision for your X, whatever it may be.
I personally don't like piggy backs, as they just don't offer enough control and I prefer modifying the ecu at the source. To me this is a much more elegant and efficient way of tuning. To me it's kind of like treating a disease by treating symptoms vs attacking the source. Which one's more effective? Ok, maybe not the best analogy, but you know what I mean.
Standalones are great for race cars, but tend to be difficult to tune because you have to program EVERYTHING, not just work off the stock programming that's already been done for you by mitsu. Partial throttle, safety parameters, you name it... you gotta do it. Yikes! Plus, they're extremely expensive and completely unnecessary until the car is making such huge power levels that the stock maf is overwhelmed. Then at that point a standalone and speed density sensor are unfortunately the only way to go.
Read the article in the link though, I think some of you will find it helpful. Good luck in making the best decision for your X, whatever it may be.
Last edited by STi2EvoX; Jul 13, 2008 at 08:49 AM.
Jul 13, 2008, 05:41 PM
#7
What do you guys think of the Accessport device? Not only dose it flash the ECU it can also hold several maps. Perrin and Al wth Dynoflash are both tuners with Accessport. I dont know if it will control as many things as Eccutek when it comes out, but it seems like an idea product. You get the option of holding mutliple maps with hopefully something that can control the who ECU like Eccutek. Only problem is it may not be out untill EVO XI comes out lol.
I think that if/when Ecuflash comes back though, everyone that is using anything else will quickly go that way, because you can flash back and forth your own maps.
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Jul 13, 2008, 06:06 PM
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I would love to use Ecuflash but Im scared to death of blowing up my own car big time. Id rather let a professional mess with it
Jul 13, 2008, 09:42 PM
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What do you guys think of the Accessport device? Not only dose it flash the ECU it can also hold several maps. Perrin and Al wth Dynoflash are both tuners with Accessport. I dont know if it will control as many things as Eccutek when it comes out, but it seems like an idea product. You get the option of holding mutliple maps with hopefully something that can control the who ECU like Eccutek. Only problem is it may not be out untill EVO XI comes out lol.
Jul 13, 2008, 09:44 PM
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Here is a great link from Turbo Magazine that talks all about the pros and cons of the three main choices out there; piggybacks, reflashes, and standalones. http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/08...ing/index.html
I personally don't like piggy backs, as they just don't offer enough control and I prefer modifying the ecu at the source. To me this is a much more elegant and efficient way of tuning. To me it's kind of like treating a disease by treating symptoms vs attacking the source. Which one's more effective? Ok, maybe not the best analogy, but you know what I mean.
Standalones are great for race cars, but tend to be difficult to tune because you have to program EVERYTHING, not just work off the stock programming that's already been done for you by mitsu. Partial throttle, safety parameters, you name it... you gotta do it. Yikes! Plus, they're extremely expensive and completely unnecessary until the car is making such huge power levels that the stock maf is overwhelmed. Then at that point a standalone and speed density sensor are unfortunately the only way to go.
Read the article in the link though, I think some of you will find it helpful. Good luck in making the best decision for your X, whatever it may be.
I personally don't like piggy backs, as they just don't offer enough control and I prefer modifying the ecu at the source. To me this is a much more elegant and efficient way of tuning. To me it's kind of like treating a disease by treating symptoms vs attacking the source. Which one's more effective? Ok, maybe not the best analogy, but you know what I mean.
Standalones are great for race cars, but tend to be difficult to tune because you have to program EVERYTHING, not just work off the stock programming that's already been done for you by mitsu. Partial throttle, safety parameters, you name it... you gotta do it. Yikes! Plus, they're extremely expensive and completely unnecessary until the car is making such huge power levels that the stock maf is overwhelmed. Then at that point a standalone and speed density sensor are unfortunately the only way to go.
Read the article in the link though, I think some of you will find it helpful. Good luck in making the best decision for your X, whatever it may be.
Jul 21, 2008, 02:55 PM
#12
Nice post guys, very informative.
Just so i get this right, the piggy back is another ECU in a different box that goes in between the engine harness and the car ECU. So it has to be in the car the whole time.
While a flash the stock ECU gets flashed to a custom rom.
Now i know from reading here that you can remove the piggyback and no one will know of it when is not there, but what about the flash. Will the dealer know the ECU is flashed? Thanks.
Can anyone say something about COBB access port? is it a device to flash your ECU or a piggyback?
Just so i get this right, the piggy back is another ECU in a different box that goes in between the engine harness and the car ECU. So it has to be in the car the whole time.
While a flash the stock ECU gets flashed to a custom rom.
Now i know from reading here that you can remove the piggyback and no one will know of it when is not there, but what about the flash. Will the dealer know the ECU is flashed? Thanks.
Can anyone say something about COBB access port? is it a device to flash your ECU or a piggyback?
Jul 21, 2008, 03:53 PM
#14
Can anyone say something about COBB access port? is it a device to flash your ECU or a piggyback?[/QUOTE]
The Cobb AP is basically a handheld reflasher with a custom interface.
As long as the piggyback vendor offers a plug and play harness, there will be no trace of its prior installation.