A message from a COBB engineer
Feb 24, 2011, 04:03 PM
#62
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This thread just shines the light on Tephra for his hard work and how appreciated he is in the Evo community. We all truly owe you. I do not know one person within the Evo community who has not had something to do with your product. When we think of anything tuning related, guess whos name comes up first. NOT COBB!Thank you so much for your hard work! IMO COBB is for the people who don't know any better.
Feb 24, 2011, 04:06 PM
#63
David Buschur entering the conversation raises a couple of questions. Is it ethical of a vendor to make a profit selling products and services that are highly dependent on the work done by open software volunteers? Is it ethical of a vendor to be openly critical of a competitor that offers the same products - although the competitor also just so happen to offer a complete end to end solution including a tuning option?
Last edited by lowkey; Feb 24, 2011 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Buschur not Busher
Feb 24, 2011, 04:12 PM
#64
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Actually for Tephra Mods he IS part of the dev process. Just because map switching exists for the GTR doesn't mean it is plug-n-play for the EVO. So tephra put in a lot of work, but he also released it open source. That said, nothing stops them from developing it on their own.
Granted it would suck if they just took a Tephra Mod and threw it into a COBB AP, even worse if they gave no credit to Tephra for it. But it was released Open Source. Of course, they risk their reputation big time if Tephra screwed something up and then one of their customers bricks an ECU or worse ventilates the engine block. So if they are smart they audit the code, validate and verify it, and provide post-sale support. Once again, a case where a commercial vendor provides something we don't get with a free download of Tephra Mod + ECUFlash + OpenPort.
EDIT: Rereading that I want to make it clear I don't think Tephra would ever knowingly push out something that could be dangerous, nor do I think he would be negligent in his testing. My point is that a commercial entity blindly implements someone else's code at their financial peril.
Granted it would suck if they just took a Tephra Mod and threw it into a COBB AP, even worse if they gave no credit to Tephra for it. But it was released Open Source. Of course, they risk their reputation big time if Tephra screwed something up and then one of their customers bricks an ECU or worse ventilates the engine block. So if they are smart they audit the code, validate and verify it, and provide post-sale support. Once again, a case where a commercial vendor provides something we don't get with a free download of Tephra Mod + ECUFlash + OpenPort.
EDIT: Rereading that I want to make it clear I don't think Tephra would ever knowingly push out something that could be dangerous, nor do I think he would be negligent in his testing. My point is that a commercial entity blindly implements someone else's code at their financial peril.
Tephra, MrFred and the vast other open source guys have provided a valuable service to the Evo that has propelled it to the platform it is now. However it's nothing new nor is it something any company should acknowledge or pay for just because they are doing the same thing. Cobb will never just find code on the next and copy paste it into theirs just to say they have it. The customers tell them "We want the same, can you give us that?" then they do. Why is that so hard to believe?
This is a large company that employs several engineers from all different backgrounds who having tuning solutions for multiple ECU's and platforms saying they are incapable of developing map switching on their own is again a ridiculous notion.
Feb 24, 2011, 04:18 PM
#65
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Is it ethical of a vendor to be openly critical of a competitor that offers the same products - although the competitor also just so happen to offer a complete end to end solution including a tuning option?
I wonder if COBB and DB consider themselves competitors [shrug].
Feb 24, 2011, 04:21 PM
#66
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I really don't understand this anger. Its like android/iphone in here....
Feb 24, 2011, 04:21 PM
#67
You might be surprised that some compensation does happen behind the scenes with ecuflash and the mad scientists that make this stuff happen. Trust me, if some tuners need something, some pay for it. In the end, the casual users and home tuners benefit from this.
You might also be surprised at the amount of tables that might currently not be available to the general public too.... yet.
Last edited by razorlab; Feb 24, 2011 at 04:23 PM.
Feb 24, 2011, 04:26 PM
#68
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90% of the parts on my car come from MAPerformance, and I even bought my accessport from them Cobb hasn't given nor paid me anything.
I back Cobb for a few simple reasons;
* They are professional above all else
* They bend over backwards for the customer (Ask the moderator Joey from the other forum)
* They are the closest AWD dyno to me lol
* Tim Bailey, Jon Drenas, and Christian are some of the most intelligent calibrators in the business.
* When I talk with them about issues I get straight answers
I am all about customer service and American parts and my car build reflects that.
Feb 24, 2011, 04:32 PM
#69
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I let cobb use my car for 2 days ( a customer in Hawaii had a problem with their AP) and all I got was a lousy t-shirt lol...... One of the employees was trying to hook me up with a free tune and Trey was being a stingy you know what.
Ever since then I realized Cobb = No bueno.
Edit now that I have read a page, I realize my post is silly and unnecessary.
Ever since then I realized Cobb = No bueno.
Edit now that I have read a page, I realize my post is silly and unnecessary.
Last edited by b16a2delsol; Feb 24, 2011 at 04:41 PM.
it is true - and Bryan@GST is probably my biggest "contributor" in this regard. Over the years he has sent me quite a few $$$'s - which I am truly grateful for. So thanks!
Feb 24, 2011, 04:35 PM
#71
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Yes but if Cobb were to just add map switching via cruise control or some other way its not a Tephra mod its simply map switching. Just as flashing an ECU isn't Tephra flashing, its just simply flashing and the first guy whomever did it isn't getting royalties nor status from all the tuning solution companies out there today. Just like the first guy to port and polish his manifold isn't getting a royalty from everyone else whom followed him.
As a comparison to flashing ... what Tephra provides there is the defintions of the tables etc and then you, I, or COBB, change the values in those tables. That is not the same as actually changing how the ROM works. That is why I differentiate between a Tephra Mod and flashing using table definitions that Tephra provided.
Your point about port and polishers not getting royalties is valid, but I never said Tephra should get paid by COBB. I made the point that you claimed he wasn't part of the development when he most certainly was. But again nothing stops COBB from doing their own independent development on a map-switching-modified-ROM.
Tephra, MrFred and the vast other open source guys have provided a valuable service to the Evo that has propelled it to the platform it is now. However it's nothing new nor is it something any company should acknowledge or pay for just because they are doing the same thing. Cobb will never just find code on the next and copy paste it into theirs just to say they have it. The customers tell them "We want the same, can you give us that?" then they do. Why is that so hard to believe?
This is a large company that employs several engineers from all different backgrounds who having tuning solutions for multiple ECU's and platforms saying they are incapable of developing map switching on their own is again a ridiculous notion.
This is a large company that employs several engineers from all different backgrounds who having tuning solutions for multiple ECU's and platforms saying they are incapable of developing map switching on their own is again a ridiculous notion.
As for if customers ask for something etc, that is unimportant to this discussion. This discussion is not about WHY a vendor adds a feature, it is about HOW they add that feature. The fact that how they add it is by using open source info just means that the HOW is generally an acceptable practice.
And with that I have a soccer game to git to.
Feb 24, 2011, 04:40 PM
#73
Since I feel I'm being called out for voicing my opinion....
I've made donations to Tephra, for the record. ANYTIME I download something new he has developed I make another donation to him. I support Hamish too and have paid for many updates when I have not needed too. Anyone else in the open source community who will accept a donation I give it to them. razorlab can vouch for me offering him payment for some help he has given me. Some open source guys I have given parts too or big discounts on parts when they need a favor returned. Something else that needs to be understood about me and the open source market in general. With the market/community being what it is, I as a tuner, have been made mostly obsolete. I used to have a car on the schedule to tune everyday. Now I tune a car a week, the reason for this is everyone is a tuner now, they don't need a guy who has the software, because EVERYONE has it. I still make my $1700 per month dyno payment and I'm still happy and grateful the open source stuff is there, even though it has actually cut my throat. So how do you like that?
As for Cobb, I was one of their Pro Tuners. I bought their software, their dongle and along with many others who did were able to tune and sell a product at a profit. The AP's use to be LOCKED and only accessed by a Pro Tuner. What did Cobb decide to do? GIVE FOR FREE, the ability to tune their software away! Did I get a refund for my fees to be a PRO TUNER? **** NO. In return for this I smashed my cobb crap in a press and returned the pieces in a zip lock bag. They rendered what I paid for useless. You can feel free to talk with other people like Ivey, Dynoflash etc. about it who were out even more money than I was. I have other issues but dragging my beliefs on importing products at a huge profit aren't for this thread.
I'm surely entitled to my opinion, maybe more so than most others.
I've made donations to Tephra, for the record. ANYTIME I download something new he has developed I make another donation to him. I support Hamish too and have paid for many updates when I have not needed too. Anyone else in the open source community who will accept a donation I give it to them. razorlab can vouch for me offering him payment for some help he has given me. Some open source guys I have given parts too or big discounts on parts when they need a favor returned. Something else that needs to be understood about me and the open source market in general. With the market/community being what it is, I as a tuner, have been made mostly obsolete. I used to have a car on the schedule to tune everyday. Now I tune a car a week, the reason for this is everyone is a tuner now, they don't need a guy who has the software, because EVERYONE has it. I still make my $1700 per month dyno payment and I'm still happy and grateful the open source stuff is there, even though it has actually cut my throat. So how do you like that?
As for Cobb, I was one of their Pro Tuners. I bought their software, their dongle and along with many others who did were able to tune and sell a product at a profit. The AP's use to be LOCKED and only accessed by a Pro Tuner. What did Cobb decide to do? GIVE FOR FREE, the ability to tune their software away! Did I get a refund for my fees to be a PRO TUNER? **** NO. In return for this I smashed my cobb crap in a press and returned the pieces in a zip lock bag. They rendered what I paid for useless. You can feel free to talk with other people like Ivey, Dynoflash etc. about it who were out even more money than I was. I have other issues but dragging my beliefs on importing products at a huge profit aren't for this thread.
I'm surely entitled to my opinion, maybe more so than most others.