Downpipe test = Zero gain
Feb 19, 2008, 09:04 AM
#49
This thread has been cleaned and reopened at the request of the vendor. I am watching this thread like the hawk, waiting to swoop down and infraction anyone who dares to poop on it.
Please everyone help me out by NOT pitting shops against each other and keeping these threads on topic so we can all learn.
Please everyone help me out by NOT pitting shops against each other and keeping these threads on topic so we can all learn.
Feb 19, 2008, 09:34 AM
#50
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Some of the reasons that I would wait before buying bolt-ons for a new X are:
1.) Not enough data yet. While various shops seem to be getting similar gains, we haven't seen data from more than a handful of cars. I'd wait to see solid data (dynocharts) from at least 15-20 cars, owned and driven by the average Joe.
2.) Medium term trends. Nobody knows yet how the X will react to mods over longer periods of time. If you pay attention to the AFRs, you'll note that they start to get leaner as more bolt-ons are added. I think we'll see a point (if we haven't already arrived at it) where tuning will become mandatory.
3.) Reliability, fit and finish, etc. Nobody knows how some of these parts will take to daily abuse in various parts of the country. A lot of the stuff coming out looks great, but I think that with the platform being more refined, a lot of people will be way more OCD about additional squeaks and rattles.
4.) More choice. I think that by this summer you'll find a better choice of parts available ... from the style of exhaust to the type of IC piping, etc...
l8r)
P.S.: ... poop! ... j/k ... thanks for cleaning the thread.
1.) Not enough data yet. While various shops seem to be getting similar gains, we haven't seen data from more than a handful of cars. I'd wait to see solid data (dynocharts) from at least 15-20 cars, owned and driven by the average Joe.
2.) Medium term trends. Nobody knows yet how the X will react to mods over longer periods of time. If you pay attention to the AFRs, you'll note that they start to get leaner as more bolt-ons are added. I think we'll see a point (if we haven't already arrived at it) where tuning will become mandatory.
3.) Reliability, fit and finish, etc. Nobody knows how some of these parts will take to daily abuse in various parts of the country. A lot of the stuff coming out looks great, but I think that with the platform being more refined, a lot of people will be way more OCD about additional squeaks and rattles.
4.) More choice. I think that by this summer you'll find a better choice of parts available ... from the style of exhaust to the type of IC piping, etc...
l8r)
P.S.: ... poop! ... j/k ... thanks for cleaning the thread.
Last edited by Ludikraut; Feb 19, 2008 at 09:37 AM.
Feb 19, 2008, 09:56 AM
#51
I agree ludi, but at the same time, the current parts for the evo 9 for example haven't really changed since their debut years and years ago. There really is only a couple slight variations that manufacturers can choose in their routing paths for the piping as well as choice of materials. I think that much like you said, there will be a better selection later in the year, and it will probably bring overall prices down a bit with there being more competition among the different vendors. I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that it really shouldn't make too much of a difference whether people get the parts now or later. Just my .02
Feb 19, 2008, 10:16 AM
#52
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I wouldnt add all these boltons without a tune right away. The X is clearly responsive to all the additions but once it is making the 80-100+ HP over stock, aftermarket testpipe or not, it needs tuning. Detonation is abundant in that car. Shiv said it, AMS set it. You can here it in their video. What more proof do you need?
However, I believe that waiting for any other reason may be foolish. Some of the newbies may not be aware of this because they havent been around long enough, but Vishnu, Buschur, Helix, and many other companies have made multiple versions of exhausts, intercooler piping, downpipes, o2 housings, and other parts over the years. Most of the parts were better than the original but some of the originals were the best we've seen from those companies. If a tune becomes available to make your parts addition safe, start modding!!!
However, I believe that waiting for any other reason may be foolish. Some of the newbies may not be aware of this because they havent been around long enough, but Vishnu, Buschur, Helix, and many other companies have made multiple versions of exhausts, intercooler piping, downpipes, o2 housings, and other parts over the years. Most of the parts were better than the original but some of the originals were the best we've seen from those companies. If a tune becomes available to make your parts addition safe, start modding!!!
Feb 19, 2008, 10:33 AM
#54
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i am just a bit puzzled so perhaps someone from AMS or any other shop can help me to understand this. I/C, catback, air filter or equivalent, I/C piping and this car is running 80-100HP over stock,...with no tuning???
With overly rich AFR, and no control over WGDC or turbo characteristics or timing, how is that possible??? Please educate me here,..
Also on a general note, i noticed that some shops have gotten their evos and 2 days later prototypes of all major power upgrades are already on cars? whatever happened to R&D, aside for just dyno graphs? Perhaps previous experience with the 8 and9?
With overly rich AFR, and no control over WGDC or turbo characteristics or timing, how is that possible??? Please educate me here,..
Also on a general note, i noticed that some shops have gotten their evos and 2 days later prototypes of all major power upgrades are already on cars? whatever happened to R&D, aside for just dyno graphs? Perhaps previous experience with the 8 and9?
Feb 19, 2008, 11:05 AM
#56
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If you question the validity of TT, why not purchase their DP when it comes out, test it, if it works sweet... if you dont notice any gains return it. I am sure they back the products/performance they sell.
Feb 19, 2008, 11:43 AM
#57
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Pay a little closer attention to those graphs. The correction factors are different on the two runs being compared to show a 106HP gain, they are at uncorrected and we are at SAE. I can put up a low reading stock pull on our X that read near 220whp and a high reading graph that was over 330 but they are not consistent as they are both off the average readings that we got that day. Technically with that in mind we made over 110 whp over stock...but posting that would not be real world gains.
We took a consistent stock pull using the same correction factor and compared it to a consistent pull after our part installs using the same correction factor. That is how we came to our HP gain. What we wanted to show you was what these parts would give you in an every day scenario.
FYI removing the cat on the X is good for 15 whp by itself..that is where there power increase came from.
I will agree in that we have not put on a lower IC pipe on the car yet. Based on the numbers from the upper I would expect maybe another 5 more peak whp or a hair more.
We are not taking shots at anyone, its just very important you pay close attention to dyno graphs as its very easy to get caught up in numbers.
Eric
We took a consistent stock pull using the same correction factor and compared it to a consistent pull after our part installs using the same correction factor. That is how we came to our HP gain. What we wanted to show you was what these parts would give you in an every day scenario.
FYI removing the cat on the X is good for 15 whp by itself..that is where there power increase came from.
I will agree in that we have not put on a lower IC pipe on the car yet. Based on the numbers from the upper I would expect maybe another 5 more peak whp or a hair more.
We are not taking shots at anyone, its just very important you pay close attention to dyno graphs as its very easy to get caught up in numbers.
Eric
I for one appreciate the honesty. Thank you!
Feb 19, 2008, 12:50 PM
#58
Not really a good idea. You're not just breaking in the engine. You're breaking in the transmission, suspension, brakes, differentials, etc. A dyno won't help you break in everything. Break-in is best done on the streets following Mitsu's recommended plan.
Ludi and NoTec also gave good advice in regards to putting mods on the car. I say enjoy the car stock for awhile just in case you unfortunately experience any little warranty issues. That way you'll be covered. Then go wild with mods once reliability and longevity have been proven for the car and the mods
Ludi and NoTec also gave good advice in regards to putting mods on the car. I say enjoy the car stock for awhile just in case you unfortunately experience any little warranty issues. That way you'll be covered. Then go wild with mods once reliability and longevity have been proven for the car and the mods
Feb 19, 2008, 01:02 PM
#59
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i am just a bit puzzled so perhaps someone from AMS or any other shop can help me to understand this. I/C, catback, air filter or equivalent, I/C piping and this car is running 80-100HP over stock,...with no tuning???
With overly rich AFR, and no control over WGDC or turbo characteristics or timing, how is that possible??? Please educate me here,..
Also on a general note, i noticed that some shops have gotten their evos and 2 days later prototypes of all major power upgrades are already on cars? whatever happened to R&D, aside for just dyno graphs? Perhaps previous experience with the 8 and9?
With overly rich AFR, and no control over WGDC or turbo characteristics or timing, how is that possible??? Please educate me here,..
Also on a general note, i noticed that some shops have gotten their evos and 2 days later prototypes of all major power upgrades are already on cars? whatever happened to R&D, aside for just dyno graphs? Perhaps previous experience with the 8 and9?
Intercooler, Catback, Test Pipe ,Filter/Intake, I/C Piping, AND a MBC boost controller.... there doing 80-100 WHP over stock.
The Stock car runs SUPER rich from the dealer and the timing is way advanced., so adding all the additional boost which is AIR FLOW (from the intake/IC/IC pipes Exhaust, and MBC) , is making the car run leaner in the top end., so it is.. in essance canceling out each other...
But in my opinion, you need a AEM FIC, because you can retard the timing and gain control of the overly rich injectors, so you wouldn't need so many aftermarket parts to optimize the performance of the car in a "stockish" form.
The car comes with a pretty big stock fuel pump, and 650cc injectors... so you figure with these bolt ons with no tune , your at a "stage 2" on the Evo 8/9 with a tune.
Hope this makes sense.
-Chris
