Building a bullet proof 4B11
Dec 31, 2008, 12:18 PM
#32
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Good question. Since there is no taller replacement block for a 4b11T like the 4g64, this would require someone like ERL to raised deck "Superdeck" style block, which they may or may not have plans on doing in the future. Raising the deck on a 4b11t would raise a few issues like replacement timing chain. Only time will tell.
Dec 31, 2008, 01:40 PM
#34
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I never said Aluminum was garbage. I was simply saying for high boost applications Iron is historically better suited than Aluminum. And even though there are advances coming forth with the 4B11.......i still wish they kept the 4G63 for the X. And although most won't admit it........i'm sure i'm not the only one.
I am well aware of what my car is made out of. Which is why i run 6lbs of boost.....not 35 like i did in my old iron blocked evo.
Evo's are a different story when you're talking about boost in the 20's, 30's, and higher......that......is usually where Iron proves itself stronger over Aluminum.
I may have not gone into great detail when i said Iron > Aluminum, but it wasn't a dumb comment. it's a fact. one is a stronger and more dense metal than the other. The only advantage to aluminum is the fact that it's lighter, which can be of value…..assuming the engine isn’t being pushed to it’s limits.
I am a big fan of AMS and i'm sure what they're doing with the 4B11 will be great and they will get the most out of this new engine. My comment was not to demean them in any way or what they're doing.
I'm just saying........unless you were running over 8-900+hp........we never had to sleve the 4G63.
Maybe i'm just bummed cause i really like the X......but i'm still stuck on the "Old" technology and i was such a fan of the old motor.
I guess you better sell your Z06. I am well aware of what my car is made out of. Which is why i run 6lbs of boost.....not 35 like i did in my old iron blocked evo.
Evo's are a different story when you're talking about boost in the 20's, 30's, and higher......that......is usually where Iron proves itself stronger over Aluminum.
I may have not gone into great detail when i said Iron > Aluminum, but it wasn't a dumb comment. it's a fact. one is a stronger and more dense metal than the other. The only advantage to aluminum is the fact that it's lighter, which can be of value…..assuming the engine isn’t being pushed to it’s limits.
I am a big fan of AMS and i'm sure what they're doing with the 4B11 will be great and they will get the most out of this new engine. My comment was not to demean them in any way or what they're doing.
I'm just saying........unless you were running over 8-900+hp........we never had to sleve the 4G63.
Maybe i'm just bummed cause i really like the X......but i'm still stuck on the "Old" technology and i was such a fan of the old motor.
Last edited by Rez90; Dec 31, 2008 at 01:42 PM.
Dec 31, 2008, 02:25 PM
#35
I never said Aluminum was garbage. I was simply saying for high boost applications Iron is historically better suited than Aluminum. And even though there are advances coming forth with the 4B11.......i still wish they kept the 4G63 for the X. And although most won't admit it........i'm sure i'm not the only one.
I am well aware of what my car is made out of. Which is why i run 6lbs of boost.....not 35 like i did in my old iron blocked evo.
Evo's are a different story when you're talking about boost in the 20's, 30's, and higher......that......is usually where Iron proves itself stronger over Aluminum.
I may have not gone into great detail when i said Iron > Aluminum, but it wasn't a dumb comment. it's a fact. one is a stronger and more dense metal than the other. The only advantage to aluminum is the fact that it's lighter, which can be of value…..assuming the engine isn’t being pushed to it’s limits.
I am a big fan of AMS and i'm sure what they're doing with the 4B11 will be great and they will get the most out of this new engine. My comment was not to demean them in any way or what they're doing.
I'm just saying........unless you were running over 8-900+hp........we never had to sleve the 4G63.
Maybe i'm just bummed cause i really like the X......but i'm still stuck on the "Old" technology and i was such a fan of the old motor.
I am well aware of what my car is made out of. Which is why i run 6lbs of boost.....not 35 like i did in my old iron blocked evo.
Evo's are a different story when you're talking about boost in the 20's, 30's, and higher......that......is usually where Iron proves itself stronger over Aluminum.
I may have not gone into great detail when i said Iron > Aluminum, but it wasn't a dumb comment. it's a fact. one is a stronger and more dense metal than the other. The only advantage to aluminum is the fact that it's lighter, which can be of value…..assuming the engine isn’t being pushed to it’s limits.
I am a big fan of AMS and i'm sure what they're doing with the 4B11 will be great and they will get the most out of this new engine. My comment was not to demean them in any way or what they're doing.
I'm just saying........unless you were running over 8-900+hp........we never had to sleve the 4G63.
Maybe i'm just bummed cause i really like the X......but i'm still stuck on the "Old" technology and i was such a fan of the old motor.
" I was simply saying for high boost applications Iron is historically better suited than Aluminum. "
That is right , specially the historically. There are evo's out there who run many times already, upgraded turbo, over 30 psi in bone stock engine internals, in road racing.
One example is Brian who runs as i remember 35 psi. Just ask him.
The car just hold fine.
Really How much whp you need?
Last edited by Robevo RS; Dec 31, 2008 at 02:29 PM.
Jan 2, 2009, 11:10 AM
#36
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A new aluminum block LS1 is just as stout as the original iron block sbc, if not more so.... why do people automatically assume aluminum is so terrible?
It is not the material that matters, but the design.... no one ever mentions, the closed deck, 4g63, vs. semi-open design of the 4b11.. and reall, that is where the strength lies..
It is not the material that matters, but the design.... no one ever mentions, the closed deck, 4g63, vs. semi-open design of the 4b11.. and reall, that is where the strength lies..
Jan 7, 2009, 11:44 AM
#38
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closed deck iron block > semi-open deck aluminum block
push both to the extreme and former will prove to be stronger than latter time after time.
If 4b11 was a closed deck, it would've been much better.
push both to the extreme and former will prove to be stronger than latter time after time.
If 4b11 was a closed deck, it would've been much better.
Jan 7, 2009, 11:49 PM
#40
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From Tim our engine builder:
Over the last few months I have been looking at internal engine upgrades for the 4B11 evo X motor. We knew to push the limits and be reliable with these new aluminum blocks we’d have to look into sleeving. I contacted our friends at ERl, who are pioneers in the sleeving industry. From upgrading Honda blocks to tricked out tall deck LS1’s I knew these were the guys I wanted to work with. Starting from a brand new OEM block we started machining away the OEM cylinder liners. During the machining process measurements were taken to verify we weren’t disrupting the structure of the block. After removing all of the necessary material and machining a step at the top of the bore a final inspection is done to ensure no block distortion. This is where ERL can work their magic. ERL then installed proprietary ductile iron sleeves which are pressed in and sit in the machined step so they will not sink during engine operation. Once in place the new sleeves are machined flush or in our case a few thousands above the rest of the deck surface. This is similar to an o-ring and will help increase the clamping force on the head gasket. Each block then receives final bore sizing and cross hatching. Next we install AMS spec main studs and align hone the main journals. This is done to 100% verify that there was no movement in the block during any of the other machining processes. Now I’m ready for the internals!! Here are some pics of the build so far.
[quoted images removed]
Over the last few months I have been looking at internal engine upgrades for the 4B11 evo X motor. We knew to push the limits and be reliable with these new aluminum blocks we’d have to look into sleeving. I contacted our friends at ERl, who are pioneers in the sleeving industry. From upgrading Honda blocks to tricked out tall deck LS1’s I knew these were the guys I wanted to work with. Starting from a brand new OEM block we started machining away the OEM cylinder liners. During the machining process measurements were taken to verify we weren’t disrupting the structure of the block. After removing all of the necessary material and machining a step at the top of the bore a final inspection is done to ensure no block distortion. This is where ERL can work their magic. ERL then installed proprietary ductile iron sleeves which are pressed in and sit in the machined step so they will not sink during engine operation. Once in place the new sleeves are machined flush or in our case a few thousands above the rest of the deck surface. This is similar to an o-ring and will help increase the clamping force on the head gasket. Each block then receives final bore sizing and cross hatching. Next we install AMS spec main studs and align hone the main journals. This is done to 100% verify that there was no movement in the block during any of the other machining processes. Now I’m ready for the internals!! Here are some pics of the build so far.
[quoted images removed]
Last edited by fostytou; Feb 1, 2011 at 12:03 PM.
Jan 7, 2009, 11:54 PM
#41
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I never said Aluminum was garbage. I was simply saying for high boost applications Iron is historically better suited than Aluminum. And even though there are advances coming forth with the 4B11.......i still wish they kept the 4G63 for the X. And although most won't admit it........i'm sure i'm not the only one.
I am well aware of what my car is made out of. Which is why i run 6lbs of boost.....not 35 like i did in my old iron blocked evo.
Evo's are a different story when you're talking about boost in the 20's, 30's, and higher......that......is usually where Iron proves itself stronger over Aluminum.
I may have not gone into great detail when i said Iron > Aluminum, but it wasn't a dumb comment. it's a fact. one is a stronger and more dense metal than the other. The only advantage to aluminum is the fact that it's lighter, which can be of value…..assuming the engine isn’t being pushed to it’s limits.
I am a big fan of AMS and i'm sure what they're doing with the 4B11 will be great and they will get the most out of this new engine. My comment was not to demean them in any way or what they're doing.
I'm just saying........unless you were running over 8-900+hp........we never had to sleve the 4G63.
Maybe i'm just bummed cause i really like the X......but i'm still stuck on the "Old" technology and i was such a fan of the old motor.
I am well aware of what my car is made out of. Which is why i run 6lbs of boost.....not 35 like i did in my old iron blocked evo.
Evo's are a different story when you're talking about boost in the 20's, 30's, and higher......that......is usually where Iron proves itself stronger over Aluminum.
I may have not gone into great detail when i said Iron > Aluminum, but it wasn't a dumb comment. it's a fact. one is a stronger and more dense metal than the other. The only advantage to aluminum is the fact that it's lighter, which can be of value…..assuming the engine isn’t being pushed to it’s limits.
I am a big fan of AMS and i'm sure what they're doing with the 4B11 will be great and they will get the most out of this new engine. My comment was not to demean them in any way or what they're doing.
I'm just saying........unless you were running over 8-900+hp........we never had to sleve the 4G63.
Maybe i'm just bummed cause i really like the X......but i'm still stuck on the "Old" technology and i was such a fan of the old motor.
Jan 9, 2009, 01:34 PM
#43
AMS EVO X Sleeved Cylinder block
AMS is proud to announce the release of our new engine program for the EVO X. At the core of this program is our new iron ductile sleeved 4B11 shortblock. In conjunction with ERL PERFORMANCE we are now able to provide a much stronger building block for those looking to run some serious power through the 4B11.
Each AMS block starts with a stock 4B11 core. First the block is machined down until the OEM cylinder liners are no more. During this process precise measurements are taken to ensure that there is no structural disruption of the cylinder block. After removing all of the necessary material and machining a step at the top of the bore a final inspection is done to ensure no block distortion. From here ERL then installs proprietary ductile iron sleeves. The sleeves are pressed into the block to sit on top of the machined step. This ensures they will not sink during engine operation. Once in place the new sleeves are machined a few thousands above the rest of the deck surface. This acts much in the way an O-ring does on a closed deck block and allows for a tighter sealing surface between the block, head gasket and head. From here each block is cross hatched and gets its customer chosen final bore size. One of the last steps involves installing a set of AMS spec main studs and align honing the main journals to allow for perfect fitment. Align honing is crucial as it ensures everything lines up correctly even after the machining process.
As you can see it’s a pretty involved process but when it’s all said and done you have yourself a pretty stout shortblock capable of taking a great deal of HP.
The cost for this service is $1895.00 and it gets you everything you see above.
If you do not wish to send in a core to have machined then there will be an additional $1534.00 for a new OEM 4B11 block. You are also given the option of choosing any bore size between 86mm and 88mm based on your needs.
We will be offering built short blocks in the future but for those Do-It-Yourself guys out there we thought it would be a beneficial to offer the possibility of choosing your own internals.
Please feel free to ask any questions that you may have. Our engine builder Tim will be monitoring this thread to field any questions on this particular part. Thank you and enjoy the pictures!
Eric
Jan 10, 2009, 12:46 PM
#45
Looks badass! I'm confused about one thing though; what's the deal with the align honing process of the main journals? These are not even touched during the machining of the sleeves, so why do these need to be honed? I'm guessing some kind of distortion of the block occurs during the machining process, but you guys said that you brace the block so that no distortion can occur, so I'm not quite sure what's occuring here. Any info would be appreciated, thanks. Oh, and keep up the good work! Looks great!
Last edited by STi2EvoX; Jan 10, 2009 at 12:50 PM.