Aftermarkit FMIC weights vs stock
Mar 16, 2009, 07:14 AM
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There is one major problem about intercooler tests and dyno's...the fact that an intercooler is based around air moving across it. It would be like trying to accurately test a radiator on a dyno in front of a fan. It seems to me that the larger intercoolers are not going to show their true worth until you are going at some real speed.
That being said it sounds like someone needs to do a thorough Evo X FMIC test similar to the Evo 8/9 intake ones being done last year. Same car, same boost, same dyno. The same tests would have to be done around a track too, with pressure and temp testing before and after the intercooler as well. This all would get pretty expensive to do though.
That being said it sounds like someone needs to do a thorough Evo X FMIC test similar to the Evo 8/9 intake ones being done last year. Same car, same boost, same dyno. The same tests would have to be done around a track too, with pressure and temp testing before and after the intercooler as well. This all would get pretty expensive to do though.
Last edited by TearItUpSports; Mar 16, 2009 at 07:18 AM.
Mar 16, 2009, 09:20 AM
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Thanks for the information. I pulled the same graph from www.japanparts.com with the translated legend, obviously it was somewhat misleading as it lacks the details from ARC.
This dyno includes the ARC induction box + ARC intercooler, there is no ARC intercooler only dyno from ARC.
Baseline: 249.1 PS
ARC Induction Box: 268 PS
ARC Induction Box + Intercooler: 276.6
Intercooler gains: 8.6 PS
Source: ARC JP
Baseline: 249.1 PS
ARC Induction Box: 268 PS
ARC Induction Box + Intercooler: 276.6
Intercooler gains: 8.6 PS
Source: ARC JP
Last edited by LVSBB6; Mar 16, 2009 at 10:18 AM.
Mar 16, 2009, 09:35 AM
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Rather than throwing out your own comments, can you post some REAL numbers to back up your statement? I have yet seen another manufacturer with dyno figures for an intercooler upgrade ONLY on a stock Evo X, most are done with additional parts like intake, exhaust or MBC already in place, and you know how EASY it is to manipulate dyno figures especially on a car already with a boost control unit?
Making up the difference in weight isn`t really the biggest concern, its the weight DISTRIBUTION.
Making up the difference in weight isn`t really the biggest concern, its the weight DISTRIBUTION.
Basically all the data you used to back up the ARC's power is worthless. It's using an additional part which contributes a lot of power to the equation. It is unquestionably lighter than the ams or buschur units...but...the power gains on those other units will more than make up for the difference in weight.
Last edited by LVSBB6; Mar 16, 2009 at 10:19 AM.
Mar 16, 2009, 10:01 AM
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Ken: As noted above, ARC did not do the claim. The graph from japanparts.com didn`t state what other existing mods on the vehicle so it was somewhat misleading. With that being said, 8whp on ARC (with ARC intake box already in place) is still pretty impressive considering the 4¨HKS makes 10whp (with HKS suction kit already in place, dyno was done including 70mm intercooler pipings ). This makes me wonder the accuracy of dyno figures provided by other manufacturers with smaller tank size compared to HKS. 15whp to 25whp gain?? I wonder how they did it 
Lets not forget the primary objective of an intercooler is AIR COOLING. With a tune, the minimal difference in power between these units can simply be neglected. Its amusing to see how an intercooler upgrade can turn into a power war
Back on the topic of this thread regarding weight differences, it is definitely of concern to weight distribution as it is not something that can be offset easily. You either have to remove additional weight at the front or put extra weight in the back to compensate. There is a GOOD reason why our trunk size is so small compared to regular Lancers, and that is the reason I have opted for an ARC.
Lets not forget the primary objective of an intercooler is AIR COOLING. With a tune, the minimal difference in power between these units can simply be neglected. Its amusing to see how an intercooler upgrade can turn into a power war
Back on the topic of this thread regarding weight differences, it is definitely of concern to weight distribution as it is not something that can be offset easily. You either have to remove additional weight at the front or put extra weight in the back to compensate. There is a GOOD reason why our trunk size is so small compared to regular Lancers, and that is the reason I have opted for an ARC.
LVSBB6, One has to be cautious about performance claims provided by the manufacturer. They are obviously attempting to hype their product so you will buy it. This hype is easy to achieve by the test conditions and is one of the reasons it is difficult to assess the performance gains as well as compare one product to another. It is this reason that I gave you the results from EVOgen (he exists as per thread wherein I referenced his name) where he purchased and installed the ARC and gained 8whp. He had no "axe to grind" so this result is unbiased.
According to Edgar, which I cited in another thread earlier, (21st Century Performance) " Because an air/air intercooler uses ambient air as the cooling medium, an air/air intercooler cannot be too efficient- simply, the bigger the intercooler, the better. In fact, the maximum size of an air/air intercooler is normally dictated by the amount of space available at the front of the car and the size of your wallet, rather than any other factor". Now HKS makes the largest volume intercooler at 1018 cubic in.; ARC's is 577.5. HKS, on their website, claim a 10 whp, half of ARC's . Doesn't this make you question, just a little, ARC's claim of 25 whp? You would perhaps argue with, It is the fin design of ARC that overcomes the size difference and results in more than doubling of whp. If this were, in fact, true, then it is reasonable to expect HKS to have done same. In addition, according to Bell (website), manufacturer style (bar and plate vs tube and fin) are "essentially all the same ..." efficiency.
Finally, I leave you with a question given the above: Which FMIC would you buy, the HKS or ARC unit? They both cost ~the same.
Later, Ken
According to Edgar, which I cited in another thread earlier, (21st Century Performance) " Because an air/air intercooler uses ambient air as the cooling medium, an air/air intercooler cannot be too efficient- simply, the bigger the intercooler, the better. In fact, the maximum size of an air/air intercooler is normally dictated by the amount of space available at the front of the car and the size of your wallet, rather than any other factor". Now HKS makes the largest volume intercooler at 1018 cubic in.; ARC's is 577.5. HKS, on their website, claim a 10 whp, half of ARC's . Doesn't this make you question, just a little, ARC's claim of 25 whp? You would perhaps argue with, It is the fin design of ARC that overcomes the size difference and results in more than doubling of whp. If this were, in fact, true, then it is reasonable to expect HKS to have done same. In addition, according to Bell (website), manufacturer style (bar and plate vs tube and fin) are "essentially all the same ..." efficiency.
Finally, I leave you with a question given the above: Which FMIC would you buy, the HKS or ARC unit? They both cost ~the same.
Later, Ken
Last edited by LVSBB6; Mar 16, 2009 at 10:17 AM.
Mar 16, 2009, 10:53 AM
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Later, Ken
Edit: To your other question, the HKS unit costs$1695 w/o piping; I do not know the weight but ETS 4" FMIC is similar in size and weighs ~23lbs.
Last edited by KPerez; Mar 16, 2009 at 10:55 AM.
Mar 16, 2009, 11:10 AM
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Ken: As noted above, ARC did not do the claim. The graph from japanparts.com didn`t state what other existing mods on the vehicle so it was somewhat misleading. With that being said, 8whp on ARC (with ARC intake box already in place) is still pretty impressive considering the 4¨HKS makes 10whp (with HKS suction kit already in place, dyno was done including 70mm intercooler pipings ). This makes me wonder the accuracy of dyno figures provided by other manufacturers with smaller tank size compared to HKS. 15whp to 25whp gain?? I wonder how they did it
Lets not forget the primary objective of an intercooler is AIR COOLING. With a tune, the minimal difference in power between these units can simply be neglected. Its amusing to see how an intercooler upgrade can turn into a power war
Back on the topic of this thread regarding weight differences, it is definitely of concern to weight distribution as it is not something that can be offset easily. You either have to remove additional weight at the front or put extra weight in the back to compensate. There is a GOOD reason why our trunk size is so small compared to regular Lancers, and that is the reason I have opted for an ARC.
Lets not forget the primary objective of an intercooler is AIR COOLING. With a tune, the minimal difference in power between these units can simply be neglected. Its amusing to see how an intercooler upgrade can turn into a power war
Back on the topic of this thread regarding weight differences, it is definitely of concern to weight distribution as it is not something that can be offset easily. You either have to remove additional weight at the front or put extra weight in the back to compensate. There is a GOOD reason why our trunk size is so small compared to regular Lancers, and that is the reason I have opted for an ARC.
Yes I hear you about the weight distribution and replacing the OEM FMIC with the HKS unit will definitely add weight. My focus has been directed at the performance gains from the FMIC replacement. What one has to balance is the performance gains relative to the degree of departure from equal weight distribution. So let us say a heavier FMIC yeilds more whp than a lighter one and for the sake of discussion it is 10whp. Would you sacrifice the weight for the performance or vice versa. But you say the HKS unit and ARC are ~the same FMIC gains so go with the ARC which is lighter. Well, unfortunately, it is not that easy to accurately determine the actual performance gains; please see my comments to Nojoy above.
I wish it was cut and dry but sadly it is not.
Later, Ken
Mar 16, 2009, 11:54 AM
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Source of HKS I/C dyno, scroll to middle of the page to find 4B11 and click on the part number:
http://www.hks-power.co.jp/products/.../ic_data.html#
Additional source with translation:
http://shh-proshop.blogspot.com/2008...-large_06.html
Dyno:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0EEP6jcfWz...h/image010.gif
Black line: normal (appears with HKS suction already in place)
Blue line: - I/C only
Red line: I/C with 70mm pipings.
Remarks:
* Modification of headlamp support upper panel, reinforcement and aircon pipe
are required during installation.
*Resetting of ECU is not required.
*Area of core will be larger than stock and it is thicker. Therefore upgrading of radiator is recommended for sportdriving.
Has anyone actually measured the coolant temperature increase after their FMIC upgrade? There must be a GOOD reason for HKS to point this out for their 4" intercooler.
I cannot see there is any sort of sacrifice in weight and performance just yet. As I said, the difference of horsepower gains between these intercoolers would be very small once the car is tuned. I care less on how much they each make as a bolt-on power (as most of you with intercooler upgrade would eventually get a tune anyway), but more focused on its primary function, which is cooling efficiency.
Weight distribution, however, cannot simply be overcomed by adding more power, it throws off handling of the car and you need more than just a few ponies to make that up. Whether you feel it or not it`s another story, but adding 15lbs at the utmost front of the car DOES make a difference when it comes to turning and braking. Can you feel the difference on the streets? probably not. But it is a fact.
http://www.hks-power.co.jp/products/.../ic_data.html#
Additional source with translation:
http://shh-proshop.blogspot.com/2008...-large_06.html
Dyno:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0EEP6jcfWz...h/image010.gif
Black line: normal (appears with HKS suction already in place)
Blue line: - I/C only
Red line: I/C with 70mm pipings.
Remarks:
* Modification of headlamp support upper panel, reinforcement and aircon pipe
are required during installation.
*Resetting of ECU is not required.
*Area of core will be larger than stock and it is thicker. Therefore upgrading of radiator is recommended for sportdriving.
Has anyone actually measured the coolant temperature increase after their FMIC upgrade? There must be a GOOD reason for HKS to point this out for their 4" intercooler.
I cannot see there is any sort of sacrifice in weight and performance just yet. As I said, the difference of horsepower gains between these intercoolers would be very small once the car is tuned. I care less on how much they each make as a bolt-on power (as most of you with intercooler upgrade would eventually get a tune anyway), but more focused on its primary function, which is cooling efficiency.
Weight distribution, however, cannot simply be overcomed by adding more power, it throws off handling of the car and you need more than just a few ponies to make that up. Whether you feel it or not it`s another story, but adding 15lbs at the utmost front of the car DOES make a difference when it comes to turning and braking. Can you feel the difference on the streets? probably not. But it is a fact.
I may be misinterpreting your last post but the HKS FMIC alone makes 10whp, i.e., w/o the hard pipes. Pipes added HKS claims another 10whp or 20 whp total.
Yes I hear you about the weight distribution and replacing the OEM FMIC with the HKS unit will definitely add weight. My focus has been directed at the performance gains from the FMIC replacement. What one has to balance is the performance gains relative to the degree of departure from equal weight distribution. So let us say a heavier FMIC yeilds more whp than a lighter one and for the sake of discussion it is 10whp. Would you sacrifice the weight for the performance or vice versa. But you say the HKS unit and ARC are ~the same FMIC gains so go with the ARC which is lighter. Well, unfortunately, it is not that easy to accurately determine the actual performance gains; please see my comments to Nojoy above.
I wish it was cut and dry but sadly it is not.
Later, Ken
Yes I hear you about the weight distribution and replacing the OEM FMIC with the HKS unit will definitely add weight. My focus has been directed at the performance gains from the FMIC replacement. What one has to balance is the performance gains relative to the degree of departure from equal weight distribution. So let us say a heavier FMIC yeilds more whp than a lighter one and for the sake of discussion it is 10whp. Would you sacrifice the weight for the performance or vice versa. But you say the HKS unit and ARC are ~the same FMIC gains so go with the ARC which is lighter. Well, unfortunately, it is not that easy to accurately determine the actual performance gains; please see my comments to Nojoy above.
I wish it was cut and dry but sadly it is not.
Later, Ken
Last edited by LVSBB6; Mar 16, 2009 at 12:23 PM.
Mar 16, 2009, 05:21 PM
#69
No, but it is a lot closer than the CT9A. Mitsubishi worked hard on that aspect of the car and I would rather make it better than worse.
I purchased a Perrin Stealth FMIC and I have yet to even open the box due to the weight penalty that I am not willing to pay. So I will be sticking with the stock FMIC for now and probably offloading the Perrin.
I purchased a Perrin Stealth FMIC and I have yet to even open the box due to the weight penalty that I am not willing to pay. So I will be sticking with the stock FMIC for now and probably offloading the Perrin.
hm John... i told you
Get an ARC and call it a day.
Weight loss - power gain - quality - bling factor ...
You pay for it but i think it is worth it , if you can afford it.
Mar 16, 2009, 05:41 PM
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Lots of good info KPerez I am a little surprised at the cost and weight of the HKS unit! For the $ the ARC looks to have an edge over the HKS FMIC by the above info provided.
So for me it comes down to weight, fit and finish, and reputation. The added whp of any FMIC seems to be a bonus. And as stated the FMIC whp can be inflated by hard pipes and an intake. Even though it nice to see that a given FMIC can increase whp ALONE, this info may be hard to extract from an individual manufacture. I don't expect to see a list of hp/whp of every make (although that would be a bonus), but a list of WEIGHTS and the COST of each aftermarket FMIC would be benificial for everyone.
And thanks LVSBB6 for providing info as well. I think more novice readers of this thread are leaning more about aftermarkit FMICs-
I am a little surprised at the cost and weight of the HKS unit! For the $ the ARC looks to have an edge over the HKS FMIC by the above info provided. So for me it comes down to weight, fit and finish, and reputation. The added whp of any FMIC seems to be a bonus. And as stated the FMIC whp can be inflated by hard pipes and an intake. Even though it nice to see that a given FMIC can increase whp ALONE, this info may be hard to extract from an individual manufacture. I don't expect to see a list of hp/whp of every make (although that would be a bonus), but a list of WEIGHTS and the COST of each aftermarket FMIC would be benificial for everyone.
And thanks LVSBB6 for providing info as well. I think more novice readers of this thread are leaning more about aftermarkit FMICs-
Mar 17, 2009, 07:57 AM
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I'd get the ARC if it didn't have the logo on it, as you know I am not a fan of that kinda stuff.
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