Service adjustment on stretched/old/worn timing chains? Mitsu tech video in post #16
Mar 22, 2008 | 08:07 AM
#1
Service adjustment on stretched/old/worn timing chains? Mitsu tech video in post #16
I am an 06 GSR owner. I have owned at least 7 mitsubishi cars since 97. I like to say that I am in pretty good at my local dealer with the techs. Anways back to the topic on hand. I was in the other day picking up parts for my 2G and was speaking with the techs here about the new evo. I told them that I maybe interested in trading my car in on a new X MR when they start arriving. They said that wasn't a good idea and to just keep my car until mitsu gets this timing chain thing straightened out. So I inquire about this problem with the new X and they tell me that since the chain gradually stretches over time mitsu is forseeing a big problem. I quess the ecu compinsates for this stretch but when it reaches a certain limit it can not adjust the timing correctly. With the new motor it will not be as simple as couple bent valves but basically everything starts slapping together. They have been sending the techs to this class to discuss and learn about this and they have come to the conclusion that mistu maybe switching the set-up to a kevlar belt system. The techs also felt that there is really no way for the ecu to make the proper timing adjustments based on mileage because everyone drives differently.
Anyone else heard of this? Sorry if it is a repost, I did search before posting and didn't find anything.
Anyone else heard of this? Sorry if it is a repost, I did search before posting and didn't find anything.
Mar 22, 2008 | 08:17 AM
#3
Hogwash. Those guys are total newbs. A belt will stretch infinitely more than a chain ever could. Tons of modern engines use timing chains with great results, including the Honda K block.
Most timing chains will endure the service life of the engine, which is more than triple what a timing belt will do. The thing I miss least about my IX is its stupid 60k interval timing belt.
Most timing chains will endure the service life of the engine, which is more than triple what a timing belt will do. The thing I miss least about my IX is its stupid 60k interval timing belt.
Mar 22, 2008 | 08:18 AM
#5
Not if the chain was not built correctly in the first place. I'll have to go and ask a tech I know who only works on evo's about this. that's one of the reason I never jumped into the x as yet.
Mar 22, 2008 | 08:22 AM
#6
Example:
"Many performance enthusiasts (especially those on tight budgets), base their selection of engine components simply on cost—do I buy a $75 timing chain or an $800 belt-drive kit? True, both the chain and belt drive rotate the camshaft, but that's really where the similarity ends.
Timing Tuning
While a timing chain is nothing more than a traditional internal engine component, a modern belt drive is an invaluable tuning tool that no racer or street horsepower fanatic should be without. Whether you are dyno testing or dialing in your car at the track, you need to be able to quickly adjust the camshaft timing. Camshaft timing is one of the most important tuning aids you can have. By advancing or retarding cam timing, you can compensate for track surface conditions, atmospheric conditions and simply fine-tune every ounce of performance out of your existing combination. The effect of changing cam timing is so significant that many high-end performance cars come from the factory with sophisticated and expensive variable cam-timing devices. For sportsman and bracket racers, it's even more important. If your car isn't hooking up, you can jack it up and make a chassis adjustment that may take 15 minutes or more. Or, with a properly designed belt drive, loosen four bolts and retard the cam timing in the staging lanes in about five minutes—a bracket racer's dream."
http://www.valvoline.com/carcare/art...cid=4&scccid=5
"Many performance enthusiasts (especially those on tight budgets), base their selection of engine components simply on cost—do I buy a $75 timing chain or an $800 belt-drive kit? True, both the chain and belt drive rotate the camshaft, but that's really where the similarity ends.
Timing Tuning
While a timing chain is nothing more than a traditional internal engine component, a modern belt drive is an invaluable tuning tool that no racer or street horsepower fanatic should be without. Whether you are dyno testing or dialing in your car at the track, you need to be able to quickly adjust the camshaft timing. Camshaft timing is one of the most important tuning aids you can have. By advancing or retarding cam timing, you can compensate for track surface conditions, atmospheric conditions and simply fine-tune every ounce of performance out of your existing combination. The effect of changing cam timing is so significant that many high-end performance cars come from the factory with sophisticated and expensive variable cam-timing devices. For sportsman and bracket racers, it's even more important. If your car isn't hooking up, you can jack it up and make a chassis adjustment that may take 15 minutes or more. Or, with a properly designed belt drive, loosen four bolts and retard the cam timing in the staging lanes in about five minutes—a bracket racer's dream."
http://www.valvoline.com/carcare/art...cid=4&scccid=5
Mar 22, 2008 | 08:22 AM
#7
Hogwash. Those guys are total newbs. A belt will stretch infinitely more than a chain ever could. Tons of modern engines use timing chains with great results, including the Honda K block.
Most timing chains will endure the service life of the engine, which is more than triple what a timing belt will do. The thing I miss least about my IX is its stupid 60k interval timing belt.
Most timing chains will endure the service life of the engine, which is more than triple what a timing belt will do. The thing I miss least about my IX is its stupid 60k interval timing belt.
. I am sure they are not jerking my chain, no pun intended.
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Mar 22, 2008 | 08:29 AM
#8
and be no mistaken, the chain need maintenance too. But it s almost a same time like a belt replacement. Cheaper? Yes . Better ? For the performance car, i don't think so.
Mar 22, 2008 | 08:37 AM
#10
Example:
"Many performance enthusiasts (especially those on tight budgets), base their selection of engine components simply on cost—do I buy a $75 timing chain or an $800 belt-drive kit? True, both the chain and belt drive rotate the camshaft, but that's really where the similarity ends.
Timing Tuning
While a timing chain is nothing more than a traditional internal engine component, a modern belt drive is an invaluable tuning tool that no racer or street horsepower fanatic should be without. Whether you are dyno testing or dialing in your car at the track, you need to be able to quickly adjust the camshaft timing. Camshaft timing is one of the most important tuning aids you can have. By advancing or retarding cam timing, you can compensate for track surface conditions, atmospheric conditions and simply fine-tune every ounce of performance out of your existing combination. The effect of changing cam timing is so significant that many high-end performance cars come from the factory with sophisticated and expensive variable cam-timing devices. For sportsman and bracket racers, it's even more important. If your car isn't hooking up, you can jack it up and make a chassis adjustment that may take 15 minutes or more. Or, with a properly designed belt drive, loosen four bolts and retard the cam timing in the staging lanes in about five minutes—a bracket racer's dream."
http://www.valvoline.com/carcare/art...cid=4&scccid=5
"Many performance enthusiasts (especially those on tight budgets), base their selection of engine components simply on cost—do I buy a $75 timing chain or an $800 belt-drive kit? True, both the chain and belt drive rotate the camshaft, but that's really where the similarity ends.
Timing Tuning
While a timing chain is nothing more than a traditional internal engine component, a modern belt drive is an invaluable tuning tool that no racer or street horsepower fanatic should be without. Whether you are dyno testing or dialing in your car at the track, you need to be able to quickly adjust the camshaft timing. Camshaft timing is one of the most important tuning aids you can have. By advancing or retarding cam timing, you can compensate for track surface conditions, atmospheric conditions and simply fine-tune every ounce of performance out of your existing combination. The effect of changing cam timing is so significant that many high-end performance cars come from the factory with sophisticated and expensive variable cam-timing devices. For sportsman and bracket racers, it's even more important. If your car isn't hooking up, you can jack it up and make a chassis adjustment that may take 15 minutes or more. Or, with a properly designed belt drive, loosen four bolts and retard the cam timing in the staging lanes in about five minutes—a bracket racer's dream."
http://www.valvoline.com/carcare/art...cid=4&scccid=5
Umm, you DO know that the chains are fully adjustable because its a Mivec system, right?
While what you said might apply to something like a 1986 Dodge Daytona with a timing chain that has no variable valve timing, it does not apply at all to the 4B11. The 4B11 advances and retards stock.
EcuTeK told me themselves that they have control of both cams through Mivec.
The control range of the degreeing change is way beyond what the chain could ever "stretch". If there is a problem with timing chains, Honda, BMW, Toyota, and a host of others don't know about it.
Also, the world engine is in a Dodge application and a Hyundai application. To me, this is making a mountain out of a molehill that doesn't even exist. Its like Henny Penny running around and saying the sky is falling.
Mar 22, 2008 | 08:44 AM
#11
everything is adjustable. i know that, but the chain plates can be loose etc. Why start using belts since 1950's ? Both have they advantage and disadvantage.
For DD the chain is fine. For racing the belt is better.
For DD the chain is fine. For racing the belt is better.
Mar 22, 2008 | 09:43 AM
#12
Umm, you DO know that the chains are fully adjustable because its a Mivec system, right?
While what you said might apply to something like a 1986 Dodge Daytona with a timing chain that has no variable valve timing, it does not apply at all to the 4B11. The 4B11 advances and retards stock.
EcuTeK told me themselves that they have control of both cams through Mivec.
The control range of the degreeing change is way beyond what the chain could ever "stretch". If there is a problem with timing chains, Honda, BMW, Toyota, and a host of others don't know about it.
Also, the world engine is in a Dodge application and a Hyundai application. To me, this is making a mountain out of a molehill that doesn't even exist. Its like Henny Penny running around and saying the sky is falling.
While what you said might apply to something like a 1986 Dodge Daytona with a timing chain that has no variable valve timing, it does not apply at all to the 4B11. The 4B11 advances and retards stock.
EcuTeK told me themselves that they have control of both cams through Mivec.
The control range of the degreeing change is way beyond what the chain could ever "stretch". If there is a problem with timing chains, Honda, BMW, Toyota, and a host of others don't know about it.
Also, the world engine is in a Dodge application and a Hyundai application. To me, this is making a mountain out of a molehill that doesn't even exist. Its like Henny Penny running around and saying the sky is falling.
Maybe Mitsu will work on some sort of ECU patch to fix the problem. All I am saying is that they have forseen a possible problem with the stock ECU and the timing chain. This of course does not effect a new car but as it wears they see a possible problem. I will see if Tim can get me the actual Mitsu Data on it and I can post it up here.
Mar 22, 2008 | 10:01 AM
#13
For a street car, even one that sees occasional track use, a timing belt is archaic and unnecessary. Period.
Mar 22, 2008 | 10:08 AM
#15
I think your techs might be taking something out of context from that training. The ECU is able to detect how much the chain has stretched by detecting variations in cam angle. When this variation hits .6% (3mm), it triggers a DTC P0012 code. This forces the techs to make a visual inspection of the chain using marks on the block for comparison. If the block check passes, then they use the MUT-III tool they have to calculate that actual stretch, and reprogram the stretch value in the ECU.
In the initial training, this code was supposed to come set on all the new cars, and the techs would set the ECU to start its measurement for variation from that point. However, all the new cars I have seen come in off the truck did not have this set. This is not to say some did, just not the few I have seen.
Mitsu states that chain stretch is caused by poor oil maintenance and excessively hard driving. There was nothing in the training that stated there is a flaw in the design and it would need to be addressed. Overall, Mitsubishi states they went to a chain to reduce weight, which is kind of interesting. I would have thought the chain would be heavier then the belt.
In the initial training, this code was supposed to come set on all the new cars, and the techs would set the ECU to start its measurement for variation from that point. However, all the new cars I have seen come in off the truck did not have this set. This is not to say some did, just not the few I have seen.
Mitsu states that chain stretch is caused by poor oil maintenance and excessively hard driving. There was nothing in the training that stated there is a flaw in the design and it would need to be addressed. Overall, Mitsubishi states they went to a chain to reduce weight, which is kind of interesting. I would have thought the chain would be heavier then the belt.