Well the day of the X test drive finally came.
Jul 8, 2008, 02:20 PM
#46
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How so?? I would really like to know since this engine is 100% new. Gone is the iron block, so we can all speculate at this point. I'm not saying the Evo is not the stronger power maker, but at this point, we just don't know.
Jul 8, 2008, 02:41 PM
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That last part is not gonna happen. 
I agree with some of what you said. I had a WRX wagon back in 02 and I liked it alright, but there are just too many things about it and the STI that make them too much of a compromise for a performance car. Thankfully, Subaru addressed the biggest offender in the 2007 model cars, by removing the tractor-like gearing the 2004-2006 STIs had.
The Evo X has a couple of really undesirable things too, but its a much better canvas for big power production IMO.
I agree with some of what you said. I had a WRX wagon back in 02 and I liked it alright, but there are just too many things about it and the STI that make them too much of a compromise for a performance car. Thankfully, Subaru addressed the biggest offender in the 2007 model cars, by removing the tractor-like gearing the 2004-2006 STIs had.
The Evo X has a couple of really undesirable things too, but its a much better canvas for big power production IMO.
and what are the comprimises of the STi? yes it understeers but that is easily fixed with some sway bars. Subaru did some of the things they did for whatever reason. I just feel they figured people didnt want a harsh @$$ ride, and if they wanted a harsh performance ride they'd mod the car. Call it dumb, but if i'm not mistaken, Subaru was up 18% for June compared to last year. They must be doing something right.
also, keep in mind Subaru switched to a hatch body style to be more competitive in the WRC, which has been proven with a 2nd place finish when the new STi first debut.
and the last part of my earlier post... WILL happen.
Last edited by DGMSTiWagon; Jul 8, 2008 at 02:48 PM.
Jul 8, 2008, 02:52 PM
#48
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1. styling = very subjective. i have not had one person approach me to tell me my STi was ugly. The only people who have said my car is ugly is people on forums. Other than that I've gotten countless thumbs up from the most random people. The only person outside of forums to have negative input on my car was this dude in a Chevy Colbolt SS driving by me while i waited at an intersection for my light to turn green and he gave me a thumbs down. I've actually had this dude go out of his way on the highway, roll his window down and yell at me to say "cool car!" with a thumbs up.
2. handling compared to what? a GTR. even if the STi loses to an EVO doesnt mean it has bad handling. There are no other cars in it's price range, other than the EVOX, that handles as well as it does. and honestly, are you going to keep your suspension stock? Biggest difference IMO between EVO and STi is tires. I'd take those Yokohama Advans over the STi crappy dunlops any day of the week. (although the Dunlops have better tire life.)
3. Motor Upgradability? compared to what? the 4G63? Other than that, the Ej25 is very upgradable. 290-300whp is easy on the EJ25. that is basically stage 2 on 91 octane. (protuned COBB Accessport w/ downpipe)
it takes on the higher end, $750 (front and rear sway bars, and sport springs), and a set of tires like the EVO Yoko Advans for the STi to do 1.2g on the skidpad.
also, believe it or not, there are a lot of dudes on iwsti who have test driven both the EVO X and STi and decided to go with the STi. to each his own.
man.. i really dont want to get into this kind of discussion.
2. handling compared to what? a GTR. even if the STi loses to an EVO doesnt mean it has bad handling. There are no other cars in it's price range, other than the EVOX, that handles as well as it does. and honestly, are you going to keep your suspension stock? Biggest difference IMO between EVO and STi is tires. I'd take those Yokohama Advans over the STi crappy dunlops any day of the week. (although the Dunlops have better tire life.)
3. Motor Upgradability? compared to what? the 4G63? Other than that, the Ej25 is very upgradable. 290-300whp is easy on the EJ25. that is basically stage 2 on 91 octane. (protuned COBB Accessport w/ downpipe)
it takes on the higher end, $750 (front and rear sway bars, and sport springs), and a set of tires like the EVO Yoko Advans for the STi to do 1.2g on the skidpad.
also, believe it or not, there are a lot of dudes on iwsti who have test driven both the EVO X and STi and decided to go with the STi. to each his own.
man.. i really dont want to get into this kind of discussion.
As for handling the AYC is nothing short of amazing. NO need to do anything to the handling as it is great out of the box with oversteer almost all the time but to a managable degree which makes the car soooo much fun to drive. It isn't just about pulling G's, it's the fun factor and have to say the EVO wins hands down in that department.
Although 08 STi's are getting over 300 WHP there are EVO X's getting over 350 WHP also with minimal mods and pump fuel. With the new efficient head that is on it I have no doubt the 4B11 will be superior to the EJ25 in terms of overall power potential and efficiency. That and of course just like before mods will be less expensive for the EVO.
Keep in mind I have owned two subaru's including an STi and never have owned a Mitsubishi anything so for me to say all that means something I think.
Jul 8, 2008, 03:00 PM
#49
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Yes styling is personal preference. I guess I just like the way the EVO X looks a lot better especially in front. Love the fact that it comes with a FMIC stock and the aero kit looks nice. To be sure this is personal preference. Seen a few 08 STi's and they just don't do it for me.
As for handling the AYC is nothing short of amazing. NO need to do anything to the handling as it is great out of the box with oversteer almost all the time but to a managable degree which makes the car soooo much fun to drive. It isn't just about pulling G's, it's the fun factor and have to say the EVO wins hands down in that department.
Although 08 STi's are getting over 300 WHP there are EVO X's getting over 350 WHP also with minimal mods and pump fuel. With the new efficient head that is on it I have no doubt the 4B11 will be superior to the EJ25 in terms of overall power potential and efficiency. That and of course just like before mods will be less expensive for the EVO.
Keep in mind I have owned two subaru's including an STi and never have owned a Mitsubishi anything so for me to say all that means something I think.
As for handling the AYC is nothing short of amazing. NO need to do anything to the handling as it is great out of the box with oversteer almost all the time but to a managable degree which makes the car soooo much fun to drive. It isn't just about pulling G's, it's the fun factor and have to say the EVO wins hands down in that department.
Although 08 STi's are getting over 300 WHP there are EVO X's getting over 350 WHP also with minimal mods and pump fuel. With the new efficient head that is on it I have no doubt the 4B11 will be superior to the EJ25 in terms of overall power potential and efficiency. That and of course just like before mods will be less expensive for the EVO.
Keep in mind I have owned two subaru's including an STi and never have owned a Mitsubishi anything so for me to say all that means something I think.
to each his own. I'm not looking to make 500whp. maybe 300-350whp, but not even anytime soon. I will mod the suspension and probably do some track days. I'm not into drag racing. IMO, i dont see how one car is superior to the other. I just prefer the raw feeling better than the assistance of AYC etc. etc.
you dont expect me to go trade my STi in for the EVO? that's not going to happen.
The whole EVO is superior attitude gets to me because the EVO and the STI is the same type of car in the same "class". whether or not one is better than the other doesn't matter as soon as a GTR comes into the seen and smokes them both.
Jul 8, 2008, 03:34 PM
#50
Out of all 4 of those cars, I really wanted to test drive the Sky Redline. Seems to be a decent platform and something I could talk the wife into getting.
On a side note, I stopped at the local Chevy dealership yesterday to look at the z06's. On my way through the parking lot, I drove past 2 salesmen and parked my car. On my way to the vettes, I made eye contact with one of them and he just turned back around and kept talking to his co-worker. Didn't ask if I needed help. I was looking at the one z06 they had and the rest of the '08 standard vette's for at least 5 minutes. They are parked right next to the showroom window. At the desk on the other side of the glass there was two other salesmen facing my direction. Still, nobody came out. I walked inside to see if there were any other z06's around the corner down the hallway and there was not, so I turned back around and walked right past the two salesmen by the window and went outside. I was a kinda pissed off at this point, because I got no help. I passed an older salesman who looked like a sales manager and AFTER I got about 10 steps past him, he yells to me, "Can I help you with something?"... I thought to myself, you have got to be kidding me. I reply, "I wanted to buy a black z06, but nobody helped me the past ten minutes and I'm tired of waiting, so I'm just going to go to Jerry's on Joppa road." I would think that in this ****ty economy, the salemen would be a lot hungrier then they were.
On a side note, I stopped at the local Chevy dealership yesterday to look at the z06's. On my way through the parking lot, I drove past 2 salesmen and parked my car. On my way to the vettes, I made eye contact with one of them and he just turned back around and kept talking to his co-worker. Didn't ask if I needed help. I was looking at the one z06 they had and the rest of the '08 standard vette's for at least 5 minutes. They are parked right next to the showroom window. At the desk on the other side of the glass there was two other salesmen facing my direction. Still, nobody came out. I walked inside to see if there were any other z06's around the corner down the hallway and there was not, so I turned back around and walked right past the two salesmen by the window and went outside. I was a kinda pissed off at this point, because I got no help. I passed an older salesman who looked like a sales manager and AFTER I got about 10 steps past him, he yells to me, "Can I help you with something?"... I thought to myself, you have got to be kidding me. I reply, "I wanted to buy a black z06, but nobody helped me the past ten minutes and I'm tired of waiting, so I'm just going to go to Jerry's on Joppa road." I would think that in this ****ty economy, the salemen would be a lot hungrier then they were.
Jul 8, 2008, 04:27 PM
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Jul 8, 2008, 04:55 PM
#52
That said, I've also seen the STi motor make rediculous amounts of power. However, I got this car to be a fast daily driver with some suspension mods and have no intentions of breaking 350whp. . .i hope.
THe STi transmisson is basically bulletproof unless i went over 800hp or something so I'm good.
and what are the comprimises of the STi?
1) Stock turbo. Its tiny. I think my stock turbo is weaksauce, but its a titan compared to the STI turbo.
2) RPM. The EJ257 does not rev well. To make big power in a four cylinder, rev potential is an important thing. The engine is big and torquey, but with a large aftermarket turbo, they have really narrow powerbands compared to Evos. The Japanese market EJ207 is a much better engine in this regard. Its stronger and it can handle 8500rpm on stock internals without drama. A stock displacement EJ257 at 8000rpm has piston speeds that would make Kimi Räikkönen nervous. A 4B11 can handle 1500rpm more than an EJ257 without breaking a sweat.
3) Boxer engine. In a Porsche with two turbos, this is a great idea. In a front engined single turbo car, its the epitome of compromise. The exhaust has to travel through tons and tons of pipe before getting to the turbocharger. Efficiency is wasted and lag is increased. In an inline Evo, the manifold is extremely short, so the turbo is placed much closer to the engine. Lag is not an issue like a boxer engine.
4) Top mounted intercooler. These heat soak very quickly. If you go to a front mount in a Subaru, you compound the problem of lag, because due to the engine design and orientation, you have to use two super long charge pipes instead of one long pipe that you'll see in an Evo. Plus, the Evo comes with a FMIC from the factory.
5) Fragile engines. EJ257s have issues making big power. 380whp on a Dynojet seems to be the bubble where some people start having real problems. EJs are highly prone to spinning rod bearings. Don't get me started on WRX EJ205s, those were even worse. As far as I know in 7+ months of 4B11 being modified around the world, we haven't seen a documented 4B11 loss on here yet. That's epic to me. I keep expecting it, there is a 35R car and another car over 500whp, but no bad news yet.
6) Access. Changing plugs is more challenging than on an inline four. Changing injectors is lots more challenging than on an inline four. Changing cams is asinine in a Subaru.
Call it dumb, but if i'm not mistaken, Subaru was up 18% for June compared to last year. They must be doing something right.
Cars like ours are limited run niche market cars. They don't have much effect on the bottom line of the company. Take away the STI and Evo, and Subaru has a lot more exciting product line than Mitsubishi.
also, keep in mind Subaru switched to a hatch body style to be more competitive in the WRC, which has been proven with a 2nd place finish when the new STi first debut.
and the last part of my earlier post... WILL happen.
Last edited by Noize; Jul 8, 2008 at 05:45 PM.
Jul 8, 2008, 07:23 PM
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2) RPM. The EJ257 does not rev well. To make big power in a four cylinder, rev potential is an important thing. The engine is big and torquey, but with a large aftermarket turbo, they have really narrow powerbands compared to Evos. The Japanese market EJ207 is a much better engine in this regard. Its stronger and it can handle 8500rpm on stock internals without drama. A stock displacement EJ257 at 8000rpm has piston speeds that would make Kimi Räikkönen nervous. A 4B11 can handle 1500rpm more than an EJ257 without breaking a sweat.
3) Boxer engine. In a Porsche with two turbos, this is a great idea. In a front engined single turbo car, its the epitome of compromise. The exhaust has to travel through tons and tons of pipe before getting to the turbocharger. Efficiency is wasted and lag is increased. In an inline Evo, the manifold is extremely short, so the turbo is placed much closer to the engine. Lag is not an issue like a boxer engine.
4) Top mounted intercooler. These heat soak very quickly. If you go to a front mount in a Subaru, you compound the problem of lag, because due to the engine design and orientation, you have to use two super long charge pipes instead of one long pipe that you'll see in an Evo. Plus, the Evo comes with a FMIC from the factory.
5) Fragile engines. EJ257s have issues making big power. 380whp on a Dynojet seems to be the bubble where some people start having real problems. EJs are highly prone to spinning rod bearings. Don't get me started on WRX EJ205s, those were even worse. As far as I know in 7+ months of 4B11 being modified around the world, we haven't seen a documented 4B11 loss on here yet. That's epic to me. I keep expecting it, there is a 35R car and another car over 500whp, but no bad news yet.
and in terms with you taking me to walkedville, that's probably true because you are a lot more modded while i just have a Cobb AP stage 1. other than that, stock for stock i'd take any other EVO to walkedville.
bottomline, your weapon of choice is the EVO, mine is the STi. You should be happy because if everyone on the planet owns and EVO, what fun would it be? You can keep posting all this information because, in the end, whether you speak of cost, difficulty, or whatever it is, all this doesn't matter as long as the other person is willing to do it. yes, cost for HP on the EVO is cheaper. that's fine. but what if i'm willing to pay that extra to match that HP on my suby. it's my preference right? either way, it's useless convincing me that the EVO is better, obviously i got the STI because i think it's better. In the end, on any given day the STi can beat the EVO and vice versa.
I love cars. I respect them for what they are whatever make or model. And yes i do my share of EVO bashing from time to time, jokingly, but where is the fun in a rivalry when i dont. be proud of your car, but c'mon EVO guys... take them magazine articles with a grain of salt, and dont be shocked if one of you gets to stare at my "altezzas" as they get further and further away from you.
btw, we got you by .02 seconds on top gear. suckas. (no excuses please, such as "running start EVO wudda walked..."..) .02 seconds.
Jul 8, 2008, 07:49 PM
#56
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I, personally, know many STI's making over 400 AWHP without a hiccup. STI's with over 50K miles on the clock. They have drag raced, auto-x'd, tracked, sat in day to day traffic, you name it. The only things that have failed have been...Turbos! Sure, Joe Blow turns up the boost and kaboom! If properly tuned, an EJxx will survive.
My point was that a 400 AWHP Evo X hasn't been cruising around for 50K hard miles, yet. Basic design theories are great, and all, but Subaru hasn't floundered when it comes to it's EJ power plants here in the States and elsewhere. It's actually one of the best companies when it comes to standing behind its product. No one doubts Mitsu's dedication to building a powerhouse, cost effective, high performance 4 cylinder. We have to see though if the 4B11 will stand the test of time like the 20 year old aluminum EJ turbo motor...
Your post was good, though. Not bad for a mod...
<---Oh and look what I'm in the market for...
Jul 8, 2008, 08:29 PM
#57
If i wanted that much more power in my car, i dont think i'd keep the stock turbo.
obviously you EVO lovers got good treatment from Mitsu over here in the states versus the STi. Quite honestly Noize, anyone who wants a reliable 4cyl over 400whp should upgrade the internals of their engine, whether it be EVO or STi. I've read many posts about the EVO motor going to crap as I've read the EJ25.
obviously you EVO lovers got good treatment from Mitsu over here in the states versus the STi. Quite honestly Noize, anyone who wants a reliable 4cyl over 400whp should upgrade the internals of their engine, whether it be EVO or STi. I've read many posts about the EVO motor going to crap as I've read the EJ25.
My VIII's 4G63 made the dynojet equivalent of 465whp with a 3071R on stock internals other than $100 ARP head studs. This is even after having an earlier self-inflicted issue with the rising pressure regulator blowing off. I have a friend with a 3076R on his VIII making 487whp dynojet with 29psi on 110, 67000 miles, deep in the 11s trapping 124mph in summer heat with the only internal work being the same head studs. That's normal for a 4G63. That's super abnormal for an EJ257.
I dont experience much lag with my STi to be honest with you. When done right the boxer engine is very capable.
Like i said above, if i wanted crucial horsepower and needed such optimal cooling, my manifold will be flipped etc etc. The new STi comes with a larger intercooler than the past.
again, if i wanted close to 400whp my engine internals will be far from stock. im glad to here the 4b11 is runing well. All is good for now right?
EJ257 can be made very strong. and cost really depends on whose doing it. IMO, if you are trying to double your WHP on a 4cylinder, i wouldnt ever do it with the Engine fully stock.
also, EVO transmission is still questionable is it not?
and in terms with you taking me to walkedville, that's probably true because you are a lot more modded while i just have a Cobb AP stage 1. other than that, stock for stock i'd take any other EVO to walkedville.
bottomline, your weapon of choice is the EVO, mine is the STi. You should be happy because if everyone on the planet owns and EVO, what fun would it be? You can keep posting all this information because, in the end, whether you speak of cost, difficulty, or whatever it is, all this doesn't matter as long as the other person is willing to do it. yes, cost for HP on the EVO is cheaper. that's fine. but what if i'm willing to pay that extra to match that HP on my suby. it's my preference right? either way, it's useless convincing me that the EVO is better, obviously i got the STI because i think it's better. In the end, on any given day the STi can beat the EVO and vice versa.
but c'mon EVO guys... take them magazine articles with a grain of salt,
btw, we got you by .02 seconds on top gear. suckas. (no excuses please, such as "running start EVO wudda walked..."..) .02 seconds.
btw, we got you by .02 seconds on top gear. suckas. (no excuses please, such as "running start EVO wudda walked..."..) .02 seconds.
And you can't call no mag racing in one paragraph and then be a total mag racer in the second paragraph. It doesn't compute.
I, personally, know many STI's making over 400
AWHP without a hiccup. STI's with over 50K miles on the clock. They have drag raced, auto-x'd, tracked, sat in day to day traffic, you name it. The only things that have failed have been...Turbos! Sure, Joe Blow turns up the boost and kaboom! If properly tuned, an EJxx will survive.
AWHP without a hiccup. STI's with over 50K miles on the clock. They have drag raced, auto-x'd, tracked, sat in day to day traffic, you name it. The only things that have failed have been...Turbos! Sure, Joe Blow turns up the boost and kaboom! If properly tuned, an EJxx will survive.
My point was that a 400 AWHP Evo X hasn't been cruising around for 50K hard miles, yet. Basic design theories are great, and all, but Subaru hasn't floundered when it comes to it's EJ power plants here in the States and elsewhere. It's actually one of the best companies when it comes to standing behind its product.
We have to see though if the 4B11 will stand the test of time like the 20 year old aluminum EJ turbo motor...
<---Oh and look what I'm in the market for...
Jul 8, 2008, 08:55 PM
#59
Not the 4B11 you haven't yet.
My VIII's 4G63 made the dynojet equivalent of 465whp with a 3071R on stock internals other than $100 ARP head studs. This is even after having an earlier self-inflicted issue with the rising pressure regulator blowing off. I have a friend with a 3076R on his VIII making 487whp dynojet with 29psi on 110, 67000 miles, deep in the 11s trapping 124mph in summer heat with the only internal work being the same head studs. That's normal for a 4G63. That's super abnormal for an EJ257.
Of course you don't with that Mickey Mouse stock turbo and TMIC. Reread my post. I'm talking about modified engines. I think both our cars on stock snails are just pitiful.
Dude, you're bringing a knife to a gunfight with that engine as well as this debate. I know its possible to make an EJ fast, but it will put you in the poor house doing it. I've tuned as many Subarus as I have Evos. Easily.
400whp is not even sweating for a 4G63, I promise. I don't think the 4B11 is on par with it, but it will outdo an EJ with little effort.
Man, you are hammering on this like a broken record. The reason is because you are used to a weak engine that cannot take 400whp with a high margin of safety. Of course not all EJ257s will fail at that level, but there will be a very clear delta of them that do.
Its notchy, but its the strongest stock Evo transmission ever. Put it this way: Those Carrito.net guys are on slicks cutting 1.4 sixty foots and running high tens on this transmission and engine. Any tranny that can launch like that live gets a thumbs up from me.
Since neither of us is stock, it seems to be a moot point. Right? And I FO SHO ain't skeered of no Cobb AP stage 1 STI.
I don't think everyone should want the same car. I want a 135i, and its engine is weaker than the 4B11 by far. Its turbos suck, and it has an open diff. I'm just pointing out reasons why I jumped ship from Subaru and won't go back. If we all liked the same things, the world would be boring. I totally agree with that.
That's an autotragic UK GSR, an animal that doesn't exist quite like that here in the states. You can have that victory.
And you can't call no mag racing in one paragraph and then be a total mag racer in the second paragraph. It doesn't compute.
I don't think its tuning, its the rod bearing design. Its not unilateral, but there are enough failed examples to be convincing.
I'm not disputing Subaru's backing or the fact they are a good company....
...I'm disputing the strength and modability of the EJ2xx engines. And lose the 20 year old thing, because I promise you don't want to get me started on the EJ205. I'm so glad its out of service, may it rest in pieces.
Hello upgrade!
My VIII's 4G63 made the dynojet equivalent of 465whp with a 3071R on stock internals other than $100 ARP head studs. This is even after having an earlier self-inflicted issue with the rising pressure regulator blowing off. I have a friend with a 3076R on his VIII making 487whp dynojet with 29psi on 110, 67000 miles, deep in the 11s trapping 124mph in summer heat with the only internal work being the same head studs. That's normal for a 4G63. That's super abnormal for an EJ257.
Of course you don't with that Mickey Mouse stock turbo and TMIC. Reread my post. I'm talking about modified engines. I think both our cars on stock snails are just pitiful.
Dude, you're bringing a knife to a gunfight with that engine as well as this debate. I know its possible to make an EJ fast, but it will put you in the poor house doing it. I've tuned as many Subarus as I have Evos. Easily.
400whp is not even sweating for a 4G63, I promise. I don't think the 4B11 is on par with it, but it will outdo an EJ with little effort.
Man, you are hammering on this like a broken record. The reason is because you are used to a weak engine that cannot take 400whp with a high margin of safety. Of course not all EJ257s will fail at that level, but there will be a very clear delta of them that do.
Its notchy, but its the strongest stock Evo transmission ever. Put it this way: Those Carrito.net guys are on slicks cutting 1.4 sixty foots and running high tens on this transmission and engine. Any tranny that can launch like that live gets a thumbs up from me.
Since neither of us is stock, it seems to be a moot point. Right? And I FO SHO ain't skeered of no Cobb AP stage 1 STI.
I don't think everyone should want the same car. I want a 135i, and its engine is weaker than the 4B11 by far. Its turbos suck, and it has an open diff. I'm just pointing out reasons why I jumped ship from Subaru and won't go back. If we all liked the same things, the world would be boring. I totally agree with that.
That's an autotragic UK GSR, an animal that doesn't exist quite like that here in the states. You can have that victory.
And you can't call no mag racing in one paragraph and then be a total mag racer in the second paragraph. It doesn't compute.
I don't think its tuning, its the rod bearing design. Its not unilateral, but there are enough failed examples to be convincing.
I'm not disputing Subaru's backing or the fact they are a good company....
...I'm disputing the strength and modability of the EJ2xx engines. And lose the 20 year old thing, because I promise you don't want to get me started on the EJ205. I'm so glad its out of service, may it rest in pieces.
Hello upgrade!
I
'ed alot reading this. Entertaining as hell.
Jul 8, 2008, 10:33 PM
#60
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i really liked the 04-05 stis in terms of looks. then they took a downward spiral to hell with the 06-07s and now the 08s =(
i just really hate hatchbacks... however subjective it may be.
it's hard to believe many people would buy the 08s. it's more expensive and even more to mod. power gain is nominal compared to the x for the amount spent on mods and everything else is mediocre to me. there's a reason most magazines choose the x over the sti; before it would be on par - evo for raw performance, sti for comfort. but now the x has refined both and the sti... lackluster?
i just really hate hatchbacks... however subjective it may be.
it's hard to believe many people would buy the 08s. it's more expensive and even more to mod. power gain is nominal compared to the x for the amount spent on mods and everything else is mediocre to me. there's a reason most magazines choose the x over the sti; before it would be on par - evo for raw performance, sti for comfort. but now the x has refined both and the sti... lackluster?