Mitsubishi as a brand
Jul 19, 2008, 05:19 PM
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If you look closely, you'll see that the Evo sections in these forums comprise a largely unabashed performance car site. The Ward's 10 Best Engines list highlights several types of engines, and takes several things that performance purists don't give a toss about.
A great example that Ward's doesn't value performance above all things are their two four cylinder winners. The Audi FSI, while fuel efficient, isn't the pinnacle of performance. While the new TTS engine is upping the game a bit, its hardly in the league with other choices out there for aftermarket potential. The Mazda MZR being included is just laughable to me. Its a well known truth that engine can't even sustain 300whp without putting a rod through the block. I've seen two of them do it locally, properly tuned and knock free. The 4G63 and 4B11 obliterate these engines when comparing power potential.
To address the VQ, the first iteration of it was tepid, didn't like to rev, and responded in a very lackluster to NA bolt on modifications. It didn't belong as Nissan's (then) halo car for the USA in my opinion, often needing cold autumn air and a tailwind to knock off a high 13 second quarter mile and to break 102mph convincingly. The revup was better, and the HR is substantially better, but the weight goes up too, and we're still stuck with an engine that hovers is the uber high 13s/low 14s stock and not much hop up potential unless you go forced induction. Prepare to shell out thousands of dollars to make a VQ powered car do what a 4G63 can do with mere hundreds. There are some wickedly fast VQs out there, but none of them are all motor.
Ward's further loses me by awarding the Ford 4.6 as an award winner when the GM LS2 and LS7 are infinitely more exciting engines. Again, you're looking at a group of guys who use a law of averages and highly subjective opinions to come up with winners. In short, that Ward's list blows goats for performance car guys.
And to your last point, IMO the 335i is the best car of the three you are looking at. I had a 335i before my X and miss it deeply. I have plotted ways to get into a 135i and even have my car for sale right now. I love my car and might wait it out, or I might trade it in. I don't think the G37 belongs in that list at all. It is cheaper than the 335i, but offers faux luxury in comparison, and performance potential nowhere near the other cars. If you want a luxury car with some *****, get the Bimmer, because N54 > VQ by a lot. If you want an unabashed track star for super cheap and don't mind the lack of dash molestablility, get the X.
A great example that Ward's doesn't value performance above all things are their two four cylinder winners. The Audi FSI, while fuel efficient, isn't the pinnacle of performance. While the new TTS engine is upping the game a bit, its hardly in the league with other choices out there for aftermarket potential. The Mazda MZR being included is just laughable to me. Its a well known truth that engine can't even sustain 300whp without putting a rod through the block. I've seen two of them do it locally, properly tuned and knock free. The 4G63 and 4B11 obliterate these engines when comparing power potential.
To address the VQ, the first iteration of it was tepid, didn't like to rev, and responded in a very lackluster to NA bolt on modifications. It didn't belong as Nissan's (then) halo car for the USA in my opinion, often needing cold autumn air and a tailwind to knock off a high 13 second quarter mile and to break 102mph convincingly. The revup was better, and the HR is substantially better, but the weight goes up too, and we're still stuck with an engine that hovers is the uber high 13s/low 14s stock and not much hop up potential unless you go forced induction. Prepare to shell out thousands of dollars to make a VQ powered car do what a 4G63 can do with mere hundreds. There are some wickedly fast VQs out there, but none of them are all motor.
Ward's further loses me by awarding the Ford 4.6 as an award winner when the GM LS2 and LS7 are infinitely more exciting engines. Again, you're looking at a group of guys who use a law of averages and highly subjective opinions to come up with winners. In short, that Ward's list blows goats for performance car guys.
And to your last point, IMO the 335i is the best car of the three you are looking at. I had a 335i before my X and miss it deeply. I have plotted ways to get into a 135i and even have my car for sale right now. I love my car and might wait it out, or I might trade it in. I don't think the G37 belongs in that list at all. It is cheaper than the 335i, but offers faux luxury in comparison, and performance potential nowhere near the other cars. If you want a luxury car with some *****, get the Bimmer, because N54 > VQ by a lot. If you want an unabashed track star for super cheap and don't mind the lack of dash molestablility, get the X.
Thanks for the feedback on the BMW and X. I noticed you had mentioned you were looking at selling the X for a BMW. I absolutely agree that the BMW and N54 engine are far beyond the G37 and VQ. But, I am not sure if I can justify the 10k price difference (5k maybe, but 10k really?). My delima is just as you pointed out (luxury and a higher price of the Bimmer, or performance and lower price of the Evo). I am ready to move away from the Nissan brand as my last 4 cars have been Nissan's. I likely will go the EVO or 335i route.
Anyway, I don't want to take your thread any further off topic.
I completely understand the intent of your original post. I just took exception to the one statement about the VQ. I can't stress enough how great of a performance car I think the Evo is (much more so than my G35 or the 350Z I had before). To your original point, it should show us that Mitsu is capable of creating other great cars. To me it is disappointing that they are not. When I was younger I thought cars like the GSX Eclipse, VR-4 Galant, the Starion, Montero, and even the original Diamante were cool cars.
Last edited by jran76; Jul 19, 2008 at 05:35 PM.
Jul 19, 2008, 05:34 PM
#107
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To your original point, it should show us that Mitsu is capable of creating other great cars. To me it is disappointing that they are not. When I was younger I thought cars like the GSX Eclipse, VR-4 Galant, the Starion, Montero, and even the original Diamante were cool cars.
Jul 19, 2008, 05:58 PM
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Good luck with TM edition 6.5 (what are there like a couple 100 of those in Japan). I think the Evo 6 and 6.5 are the some of the coolest Evo's. I can just see you driving that in AR, all the crazy rednecks would be looking at you all crazy as you are on the wrong side of the car (I can say that--I am from AR).
Jul 19, 2008, 06:11 PM
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Good luck with TM edition 6.5 (what are there like a couple 100 of those in Japan). I think the Evo 6 and 6.5 are the some of the coolest Evo's. I can just see you driving that in AR, all the crazy rednecks would be looking at you all crazy as you are on the wrong side of the car (I can say that--I am from AR).
Jul 19, 2008, 06:23 PM
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Where in AR, if you don't mind me asking? I grew up in Fayetteville, and spent 24 years there. I still make it back 6-8 times a year (and LR sometimes also).
Speaking of brands and Porsche....
What do you guys think are the top "brands" of autos? Who has created the best brand? Do you consider something like Ferrari, BMW, and Porsche the best brand? Or, something like Toyota or Honda that have been uber successful over the past decade? Or, how about the traditonal Ford/Chevy brands that have been around the longest?
I think a brand is more than who is the most successful from a monetary/sales standpoint, so I would say someone like Porsche/BMW/Ferrari. They are extremely successful from a business standpoint, and they have built a brand that is easily recongnized. While a company like Toyota and Honda are successful, I don't think they have created a easily recongnizable product. When I think of them I usually think of a dull FWD car. Same goes for Nissan, only they are not as successful. I think Honda/Toyota/Nissan put out cars that are very similar and don't distinguish themselves in most cases. One key to creating a successful brand is to do so. There are a few exceptions, but is there really a difference between an Altima, Accord, or Camary from a brand standpoint?
Do you think a company like Porsche is hurting their "brand" by putting out SUV's and a 4-door sedan?
Speaking of brands and Porsche....
What do you guys think are the top "brands" of autos? Who has created the best brand? Do you consider something like Ferrari, BMW, and Porsche the best brand? Or, something like Toyota or Honda that have been uber successful over the past decade? Or, how about the traditonal Ford/Chevy brands that have been around the longest?
I think a brand is more than who is the most successful from a monetary/sales standpoint, so I would say someone like Porsche/BMW/Ferrari. They are extremely successful from a business standpoint, and they have built a brand that is easily recongnized. While a company like Toyota and Honda are successful, I don't think they have created a easily recongnizable product. When I think of them I usually think of a dull FWD car. Same goes for Nissan, only they are not as successful. I think Honda/Toyota/Nissan put out cars that are very similar and don't distinguish themselves in most cases. One key to creating a successful brand is to do so. There are a few exceptions, but is there really a difference between an Altima, Accord, or Camary from a brand standpoint?
Do you think a company like Porsche is hurting their "brand" by putting out SUV's and a 4-door sedan?
Last edited by jran76; Jul 19, 2008 at 06:30 PM.
Jul 20, 2008, 09:19 PM
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It is difficult to point out which automotive company is the 'best' and to categorize them into different 'types'.
Total profit, brand image & history, racing history, innovation, target customer, area of markets covered (passenger, performance, commercial, trucks & SUV, motorcycle etc etc) its difficult to say how much of each category would be considered to calculate.
It would be inaccurate or incomplete to judge Porsche as 'upscale performance car company', and Honda as 'economy car company', due to the fact that usually companies may cover more than just what they are good at (Honda is active in many forms of racing, Porsche makes cars like Cayenne and they also sell watches and wallets), and sometimes the companies try to shift/expand/shrink from what they are doing.
In my opinion it is still Mercedes-Benz overall. Big company with good performance, they have the longest history as an automotive company, quite active in many forms of racing with a lot of success (though probably not as much as Porsche or Ferrari if you only count Formula 1 and Le Mans series), a huge portion of technology used in automotive has been invented @ Merc, upscale consumers in general and quite a lot of historical figures associated with their vehicle, pretty wide range of market.
Total profit, brand image & history, racing history, innovation, target customer, area of markets covered (passenger, performance, commercial, trucks & SUV, motorcycle etc etc) its difficult to say how much of each category would be considered to calculate.
It would be inaccurate or incomplete to judge Porsche as 'upscale performance car company', and Honda as 'economy car company', due to the fact that usually companies may cover more than just what they are good at (Honda is active in many forms of racing, Porsche makes cars like Cayenne and they also sell watches and wallets), and sometimes the companies try to shift/expand/shrink from what they are doing.
In my opinion it is still Mercedes-Benz overall. Big company with good performance, they have the longest history as an automotive company, quite active in many forms of racing with a lot of success (though probably not as much as Porsche or Ferrari if you only count Formula 1 and Le Mans series), a huge portion of technology used in automotive has been invented @ Merc, upscale consumers in general and quite a lot of historical figures associated with their vehicle, pretty wide range of market.
Jul 20, 2008, 10:24 PM
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In my opinion it is still Mercedes-Benz overall. Big company with good performance, they have the longest history as an automotive company, quite active in many forms of racing with a lot of success (though probably not as much as Porsche or Ferrari if you only count Formula 1 and Le Mans series), a huge portion of technology used in automotive has been invented @ Merc, upscale consumers in general and quite a lot of historical figures associated with their vehicle, pretty wide range of market.
And to the above about Porsche hurting their brand: I don't think they are at all, simply because they're still delivering a Porsche look (even the Panamera or whatever the sedan is being called now has a distinct Porsche look) and quality/performance.
Last edited by UT_Evo; Jul 20, 2008 at 10:27 PM.
Jul 21, 2008, 02:58 AM
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Be sure to check the German site as well, C -> SL is just the tip of the iceberg :-)
Don't forget they make all kinds of commercial vehicles, and they have A, B class as well as the minivan. And just like Toyota having 'Scion' brand, Merc has 'Smart' brand. Also the engine choices available for each vehicle is just unbelievable, its not just two or three per model like in the states.
Don't forget they make all kinds of commercial vehicles, and they have A, B class as well as the minivan. And just like Toyota having 'Scion' brand, Merc has 'Smart' brand. Also the engine choices available for each vehicle is just unbelievable, its not just two or three per model like in the states.
Jul 21, 2008, 07:39 AM
#115
One reason MITSUBISHI is not well known to the person on the street is due to lack of advertising...I can count on maybe two fingers on how many times I see a television commercial, verseus say Toyota...I have met people who don't even know how to pronounce "MITSUBISHI".
Just from my experience since 1986, I have owned three MITSUBISHI Vehicles: 1986 Starion LE ('flat fender') and still own my: 1989 STARION ESI-R ('Wide Body') and 2006 Evo 9MR. I am the original owner of both cars. I only had an issue with the Starion when the Torque Tube mount cracked. I took it to the MITSUBISHI dealership and they replaced it with no questions asked. The parts department at my local dealerships (one originazation owns two places near me) are great and friendly to me. I have been going there for about 12 years at least.
I understand some (not all) of the feelings/opinions expressed above, but in some cases, it sounds to me that there were personell issues. The owners of some of these dealerships hire DICKS and 'sharks' as sales managers and sales people/parts dept. employees. Maybe the complaints have to go to the Managers., etc. I personally have never had an issuue with the quality of me three MITSUBISHI cars I have owned. Yes, I would buy another MITSUBISHI vehicle in a second if I could. I think the suggestion of bringing smaller-sized cars here, like the newly-introduced JDM 'i' would be a great idea! They are cheap, have great gas mileage ratings and with many units on the road, maybe more people would be interested in them and other MITSUBISHI cars...These views expressed are just mine. I know that there are people that won't agree and that's fine, but I want you to know that I am totally satisfied with owning my MITSUBISHI cars and plan to buy more of them when I can. Thanks!
Just from my experience since 1986, I have owned three MITSUBISHI Vehicles: 1986 Starion LE ('flat fender') and still own my: 1989 STARION ESI-R ('Wide Body') and 2006 Evo 9MR. I am the original owner of both cars. I only had an issue with the Starion when the Torque Tube mount cracked. I took it to the MITSUBISHI dealership and they replaced it with no questions asked. The parts department at my local dealerships (one originazation owns two places near me) are great and friendly to me. I have been going there for about 12 years at least.
I understand some (not all) of the feelings/opinions expressed above, but in some cases, it sounds to me that there were personell issues. The owners of some of these dealerships hire DICKS and 'sharks' as sales managers and sales people/parts dept. employees. Maybe the complaints have to go to the Managers., etc. I personally have never had an issuue with the quality of me three MITSUBISHI cars I have owned. Yes, I would buy another MITSUBISHI vehicle in a second if I could. I think the suggestion of bringing smaller-sized cars here, like the newly-introduced JDM 'i' would be a great idea! They are cheap, have great gas mileage ratings and with many units on the road, maybe more people would be interested in them and other MITSUBISHI cars...These views expressed are just mine. I know that there are people that won't agree and that's fine, but I want you to know that I am totally satisfied with owning my MITSUBISHI cars and plan to buy more of them when I can. Thanks!
this is coming from your great attitude and a way you handle people + situations, Howard.
And i totally agree with you.
They changed my after market rim set up , mounting new tires get the whhel inside weights for balancing etc. They worked on my car over 2 hours together + they couldn't do it one day so i had to go back an other. Because my tires i got first didn't fit on the car , strangly.
So i had to go back to the dealer to the second day when i got my new tire , and they STILL charge me an hour job.
Bad dealer ship? Oh and they didn't void my warranty after they saw my mods.
There is a hope for Mitsu ,i think.
besides the fact i got my VIII ,IX, and now the X in the states. ALL three i used or i'm using/X/ is so far never have or had a single problem.
After they reflashed my car + on my VIII after 400 miles they rebalanced my rotors /front/.
I got the Raider too , just for make the picture perfect, not a single problem.
Last edited by Robevo RS; Jul 21, 2008 at 07:44 AM.
Jul 21, 2008, 07:53 AM
#116
but for little side note on the X.
I love the car dont get me wrong, but i hate and trully hate one thing about it.
Drive by wire system.
Thiis car many times after i release the throtlle pedal the car is still giving a little amount of throttle for the engine. Other words, it is delaying the off thortle position.
Results is, the car doesn't have that much instant engine break then its suppost to.
Drives me crazy.
Sorry i had to say it.
I love the car dont get me wrong, but i hate and trully hate one thing about it.
Drive by wire system.
Thiis car many times after i release the throtlle pedal the car is still giving a little amount of throttle for the engine. Other words, it is delaying the off thortle position.
Results is, the car doesn't have that much instant engine break then its suppost to.
Drives me crazy.
Sorry i had to say it.
Jul 21, 2008, 08:06 AM
#117
but for little side note on the X.
I love the car dont get me wrong, but i hate and trully hate one thing about it.
Drive by wire system.
Thiis car many times after i release the throtlle pedal the car is still giving a little amount of throttle for the engine. Other words, it is delaying the off thortle position.
Results is, the car doesn't have that much instant engine break then its suppost to.
Drives me crazy.
Sorry i had to say it.
I love the car dont get me wrong, but i hate and trully hate one thing about it.
Drive by wire system.
Thiis car many times after i release the throtlle pedal the car is still giving a little amount of throttle for the engine. Other words, it is delaying the off thortle position.
Results is, the car doesn't have that much instant engine break then its suppost to.
Drives me crazy.
Sorry i had to say it.
Rev hang. I hate it too. Mine only does it from low RPM.
