Car and Driver Lightning lap Test Falsified?
Oct 21, 2008, 05:45 PM
#166
lol yea fail to answer once proven wrong.
I give up. Noize was right, this was a waste of my time, I should have been editing a paper.
Honestly I'm just surprised how blind your bias has made you guys. The Cobalt SS's time did beat the IX's too yano.
If you guys hadn't found the "low" g's to pick at, you would have found something else and picked at it. But it still wouldn't change the fact that the X MR ran a similar time to the IX MR, which is where it should have been. Which happens to both be under the Cobalt SS time.
I give up. Noize was right, this was a waste of my time, I should have been editing a paper.
Honestly I'm just surprised how blind your bias has made you guys. The Cobalt SS's time did beat the IX's too yano.
If you guys hadn't found the "low" g's to pick at, you would have found something else and picked at it. But it still wouldn't change the fact that the X MR ran a similar time to the IX MR, which is where it should have been. Which happens to both be under the Cobalt SS time.
I'm sorry if i go after 1am to the bed . and dont discuss it with you anymore that day...
we will see this SS triumph next year for sure.
until then this test is a BS , only because the data they provide is big time Evo advantage, and the data they don't provide is even a bigger time advantage to the SS.
I'm sure, if you and me play card, and you show me your cards and i dont show mine, but i claim to be a winner, and took your money , you would see this test result different ...
Dont you?
Oct 21, 2008, 06:30 PM
#169
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What does the Nurburgring have to do with anything? And since you seem to think AWD is inherently disadvantaged, why is it so heavily penalized or banned outright in so many levels of racing?
Oct 21, 2008, 06:31 PM
#170
Your obvious counter to that would be that there are substantially more RWD performance cars produced, and thus why they hold more records.
Also, look at Porsche. All the hardcore and fastest Porsches are RWD, and they unilaterally (RWD and AWD) have more ideal weight distribution because of engine location.
Look at something that isn't drivetrain restricted, like One Lap of America. Typically, most of all the top spots are held by RWD cars.
Back on topic, robevo and sti2evoX could have a point. While I do believe the times, I look at all my car magazines and notice that GM has far and away spent the most advertising money these last several months. There are Chevrolet and Hummer pullout “special advertising sections” in almost every mainstream automotive magazine on shelves now. Heck, maybe they let John Heinricy himself drive the SS at Lightning Lap, LOL! That would explain everything.
It makes you wonder, but I still really doubt it. I think that little car was just suited to the track and they put together a wicked lap. Regardless, the SS is a huge value for the money. Would I take one over an Evo X? Heck freaking no, but its still a fast car.
Oct 21, 2008, 06:36 PM
#171
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I think his point is that even in most (independent) tarmac motorsports, most records are held by RWD cars.
Your obvious counter to that would be that there are substantially more RWD performance cars produced, and thus why they hold more records.
Weight is also a factor, and so is weight distribution. Front engine AWD cars typically have undesirable front:rear weight distribution ratios. Because of this, understeer is prevalent. All that to say, while I absolutely agree with you that AWD is superior on an exit, a more balanced RWD car is superior at corner entry.
Also, look at Porsche. All the hardcore and fastest Porsches are RWD, and they unilaterally (RWD and AWD) have more ideal weight distribution because of engine location.
Look at something that isn't drivetrain restricted, like One Lap of America. Typically, most of all the top spots are held by RWD cars.
Your obvious counter to that would be that there are substantially more RWD performance cars produced, and thus why they hold more records.
Weight is also a factor, and so is weight distribution. Front engine AWD cars typically have undesirable front:rear weight distribution ratios. Because of this, understeer is prevalent. All that to say, while I absolutely agree with you that AWD is superior on an exit, a more balanced RWD car is superior at corner entry.
Also, look at Porsche. All the hardcore and fastest Porsches are RWD, and they unilaterally (RWD and AWD) have more ideal weight distribution because of engine location.
Look at something that isn't drivetrain restricted, like One Lap of America. Typically, most of all the top spots are held by RWD cars.
Using One Lap of America as a gauge for any motorsport comparison is laughable considering its relatively lax entrance requirements.
Oct 21, 2008, 06:36 PM
#172
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On street tires, a good AWD system dominates if it is set up well and the car doesn't understeer- perfect example- the EVO. However, RWD has less parasitic loss through the transmission, it's lighter, and when using racing slicks, traction is not an issue so it's a better setup for race cars. This is why if you look at vettes vs EVOs they can be pretty close on tight tracks when they are both on street tires, but put slicks on the vette and it's game over. I love EVOs as much as the next guy, but the bottom line is that AWD has it's disadvantages like anything else.
Last edited by STi2EvoX; Oct 21, 2008 at 06:38 PM.
Oct 21, 2008, 06:39 PM
#173
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On street tires, a good AWD system dominates if it is set up well and the car doesn't understeer- perfect example- the EVO. However, RWD has less parasitic loss through the transmission and when using racing slicks, traction is not an issue so it's a better setup for race cars. This is why if you look at vettes vs EVOs they can be pretty close on tight tracks when they are both on street tires, but put slicks on the vette and it's game over. I love EVOs as much as the next guy, but the bottom line is that AWD has it's disadvantages like anything else.
Oct 21, 2008, 06:41 PM
#174
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Touche . What I mean is that a RWD can put the power to the ground no problem when running slicks and thus the benefits of AWD (being able to stomp the gas coming out of a turn and get a super fast corner exit) are now matched by the RWD car. Thus, the advantage that our EVOs have is now gone. Now back on topic.
. What I mean is that a RWD can put the power to the ground no problem when running slicks and thus the benefits of AWD (being able to stomp the gas coming out of a turn and get a super fast corner exit) are now matched by the RWD car. Thus, the advantage that our EVOs have is now gone. Now back on topic.
Last edited by STi2EvoX; Oct 21, 2008 at 06:45 PM.
Oct 21, 2008, 06:41 PM
#175
I think his point is that even in most (independent) tarmac motorsports, most records are held by RWD cars.
Your obvious counter to that would be that there are substantially more RWD performance cars produced, and thus why they hold more records.
Weight is also a factor, and so is weight distribution. Front engine AWD cars typically have undesirable front:rear weight distribution ratios. Because of this, understeer is prevalent. All that to say, while I absolutely agree with you that AWD is superior on an exit, a more balanced RWD car is superior at corner entry.
Also, look at Porsche. All the hardcore and fastest Porsches are RWD, and they unilaterally (RWD and AWD) have more ideal weight distribution because of engine location.
Look at something that isn't drivetrain restricted, like One Lap of America. Typically, most of all the top spots are held by RWD cars.
Back on topic, robevo and sti2evoX could have a point. While I do believe the times, I look at all my car magazines and notice that GM has far and away spent the most advertising money these last several months. There are Chevrolet and Hummer pullout “special advertising sections” in almost every mainstream automotive magazine on shelves now. Heck, maybe they let John Heinricy himself drive the SS at Lightning Lap, LOL! That would explain everything.
It makes you wonder, but I still really doubt it. I think that little car was just suited to the track and they put together a wicked lap. Regardless, the SS is a huge value for the money. Would I take one over an Evo X? Heck freaking no, but its still a fast car.
Your obvious counter to that would be that there are substantially more RWD performance cars produced, and thus why they hold more records.
Weight is also a factor, and so is weight distribution. Front engine AWD cars typically have undesirable front:rear weight distribution ratios. Because of this, understeer is prevalent. All that to say, while I absolutely agree with you that AWD is superior on an exit, a more balanced RWD car is superior at corner entry.
Also, look at Porsche. All the hardcore and fastest Porsches are RWD, and they unilaterally (RWD and AWD) have more ideal weight distribution because of engine location.
Look at something that isn't drivetrain restricted, like One Lap of America. Typically, most of all the top spots are held by RWD cars.
Back on topic, robevo and sti2evoX could have a point. While I do believe the times, I look at all my car magazines and notice that GM has far and away spent the most advertising money these last several months. There are Chevrolet and Hummer pullout “special advertising sections” in almost every mainstream automotive magazine on shelves now. Heck, maybe they let John Heinricy himself drive the SS at Lightning Lap, LOL! That would explain everything.
It makes you wonder, but I still really doubt it. I think that little car was just suited to the track and they put together a wicked lap. Regardless, the SS is a huge value for the money. Would I take one over an Evo X? Heck freaking no, but its still a fast car.
I got many SRT 4 owner friends so it is not far from me the FWD car scene.
I do how ever have a problem, the test results and the way they provided the data.
many shady area's are there.
Like the IS-F vs M3 is always close call. Not here 9 sec
The Lotus SC is a truck monster with a good driver on half slick. and got over 3 sec from the cobalt...
The STI has a better power at high speed then a MR but look the time difference 6 second????
the 135i is a power full factory car and has an advantige in highspeed race
and on and on ..
that is why i thought i will raise questions.
Last edited by Robevo RS; Oct 21, 2008 at 06:45 PM.
Oct 21, 2008, 06:44 PM
#176
You're assuming that AWD is penalized or banned because it is better. Cost may also be an issue. Weight is another. I'm not saying AWD isn't good but it's not the best out there, it's just one way of accomplishing the same goal. No matter how you try to cut it, if you're using the front wheels to power a vehicle, you are obviously reducing their ability to steer a car? Why do you think all AWD cars understeer? Even the Evo will understeer if you push it enough. Moreover, why do many AWD systems try to mimic RWD behaviour?
Oct 21, 2008, 06:45 PM
#177
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Touche . What I mean is that a RWD can put the power to the ground no problem when running slicks and thus the benefits of AWD (being able to stomp the gas coming out of a turn and get a super fast corner exit) are now matched by the RWD car. Thus, the advantage that our EVOs have is now gone.
. What I mean is that a RWD can put the power to the ground no problem when running slicks and thus the benefits of AWD (being able to stomp the gas coming out of a turn and get a super fast corner exit) are now matched by the RWD car. Thus, the advantage that our EVOs have is now gone.
Oct 21, 2008, 06:46 PM
#178
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The Nurburgring is a great test for what a car is capable. A car is exposed to a variety of conditions and thus it gives you an excellent means by which to assess the overall performance of a vehicle.
You're assuming that AWD is penalized or banned because it is better. Cost may also be an issue. Weight is another. I'm not saying AWD isn't good but it's not the best out there, it's just one way of accomplishing the same goal. No matter how you try to cut it, if you're using the front wheels to power a vehicle, you are obviously reducing their ability to steer a car? Why do you think all AWD cars understeer? Even the Evo will understeer if you push it enough. Moreover, why do many AWD systems try to mimic RWD behaviour?
You're assuming that AWD is penalized or banned because it is better. Cost may also be an issue. Weight is another. I'm not saying AWD isn't good but it's not the best out there, it's just one way of accomplishing the same goal. No matter how you try to cut it, if you're using the front wheels to power a vehicle, you are obviously reducing their ability to steer a car? Why do you think all AWD cars understeer? Even the Evo will understeer if you push it enough. Moreover, why do many AWD systems try to mimic RWD behaviour?
Also, an Evo will not understeer if you drive it correctly. Steering isn't entirely accomplished by the front wheels if you properly rotate a car.
Last edited by MrBonus; Oct 21, 2008 at 06:49 PM.
Oct 21, 2008, 06:53 PM
#179
i'm happy you see that way..
I'm sorry if i go after 1am to the bed . and dont discuss it with you anymore that day...
we will see this SS triumph next year for sure.
until then this test is a BS , only because the data they provide is big time Evo advantage, and the data they don't provide is even a bigger time advantage to the SS.
I'm sure, if you and me play card, and you show me your cards and i dont show mine, but i claim to be a winner, and took your money , you would see this test result different ...
Dont you?
I'm sorry if i go after 1am to the bed . and dont discuss it with you anymore that day...
we will see this SS triumph next year for sure.
until then this test is a BS , only because the data they provide is big time Evo advantage, and the data they don't provide is even a bigger time advantage to the SS.
I'm sure, if you and me play card, and you show me your cards and i dont show mine, but i claim to be a winner, and took your money , you would see this test result different ...
Dont you?
Once again, I will say that the Evo X MR's time is right on the money, if not better than what anyone would expect a stock X MR to run on this course. Which is even faster than the IX MR on a high speed course. So keep holding on to your hope that the X is better than it is.
Actually, this doesn't even say anything bad about the X. That the MR managed that time on this course, I'm quite impressed. I'm even more impressed by the Cobalt SS.
I really really hope they release extra information from the course so you can eat your words
Oct 21, 2008, 06:53 PM
#180
And the FIA banned 4WD from touring cars because Quattro was simply too fast. If AWD cars have such an inherent disadvantage, why have they consistently been more heavily penalized with weight restrictions than RWD cars?
Using One Lap of America as a gauge for any motorsport comparison is laughable considering its relatively lax entrance requirements.
Using One Lap of America as a gauge for any motorsport comparison is laughable considering its relatively lax entrance requirements.
You're starting to sound a bit like a broken record with this one point you won't let go. Though relatively crushed in other examples, you come right back, like a moth to a flame.
The fact that One Lap has very lax entrance requirements is a PERFECT example. Why aren't AWD cars dominating in this case?
And why are the fastest Porsches all RWD?
Think of something more basic that is stupid fast, like a shifter kart.
Show me a fast track prepped Evo or STI and I'll show you five Vettes that will run circles around it for half the cost in upgrades.
This is an undisputable fact: All the fastest tarmac cars in extreme motorsports in the world are RWD.