Car and Driver Lightning lap Test Falsified?
Oct 21, 2008, 06:54 PM
#181
There are restrictions all over the place, I agree that in the past this has been a protectionist move (such as banning the Skyline GTR) but I suspect that now it's more for historical reasons than anything else.
The Evo will understeer, the simple nature of AWD will cause it to understeer. Every review out there complains of this. Granted the Evo has very trick technology to avoid this as much as possible but it's impossible to fight basic physics.
The Evo will understeer, the simple nature of AWD will cause it to understeer. Every review out there complains of this. Granted the Evo has very trick technology to avoid this as much as possible but it's impossible to fight basic physics.
Oct 21, 2008, 06:55 PM
#182
i'm actually not argueing the SS value or the great performance.
I got many SRT 4 owner friends so it is not far from me the FWD car scene.
I do how ever have a problem, the test results and the way they provided the data.
many shady area's are there.
Like the IS-F vs M3 is always close call. Not here 9 sec
The Lotus SC is a truck monster with a good driver on half slick. and got over 3 sec from the cobalt...
The STI has a better power at high speed then a MR but look the time difference 6 second????
the 135i is a power full factory car and has an advantige in highspeed race
and on and on ..
that is why i thought i will raise questions.
I got many SRT 4 owner friends so it is not far from me the FWD car scene.
I do how ever have a problem, the test results and the way they provided the data.
many shady area's are there.
Like the IS-F vs M3 is always close call. Not here 9 sec
The Lotus SC is a truck monster with a good driver on half slick. and got over 3 sec from the cobalt...
The STI has a better power at high speed then a MR but look the time difference 6 second????
the 135i is a power full factory car and has an advantige in highspeed race
and on and on ..
that is why i thought i will raise questions.
Man up and say you think the MR should have ran faster. So that I can shut you down again and say it ran exactly the time it should have
Oct 21, 2008, 06:58 PM
#184
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You're starting to sound a bit like a broken record with this one point you won't let go. Though relatively crushed in other examples, you come right back, like a moth to a flame.
The fact that One Lap has very lax entrance requirements is a PERFECT example. Why aren't AWD cars dominating in this case?
And why are the fastest Porsches all RWD?
Think of something more basic that is stupid fast, like a shifter kart.
Show me a fast track prepped Evo or STI and I'll show you five Vettes that will run circles around it for half the cost in upgrades.
This is an undisputable fact: All the fastest tarmac cars in extreme motorsports in the world are RWD.
The fact that One Lap has very lax entrance requirements is a PERFECT example. Why aren't AWD cars dominating in this case?
And why are the fastest Porsches all RWD?
Think of something more basic that is stupid fast, like a shifter kart.
Show me a fast track prepped Evo or STI and I'll show you five Vettes that will run circles around it for half the cost in upgrades.
This is an undisputable fact: All the fastest tarmac cars in extreme motorsports in the world are RWD.
Hey, a new GTR is faster around a track than a 1971 Chevy Vega. What exactly does this prove?
Nobody is arguing that the fastest cars in the world aren't RWD. The number of factors that attribute to this from history to cost to motorsport politics are so numerous that the discussion would become far too convoluted to draw any kind of meaningful conclusion in terms of the superiority of AWD or RWD.
Last edited by MrBonus; Oct 21, 2008 at 07:02 PM.
Oct 21, 2008, 07:03 PM
#185
The Nurburgring is a great test for what a car is capable. A car is exposed to a variety of conditions and thus it gives you an excellent means by which to assess the overall performance of a vehicle.
You're assuming that AWD is penalized or banned because it is better. Cost may also be an issue. Weight is another. I'm not saying AWD isn't good but it's not the best out there, it's just one way of accomplishing the same goal. No matter how you try to cut it, if you're using the front wheels to power a vehicle, you are obviously reducing their ability to steer a car? Why do you think all AWD cars understeer? Even the Evo will understeer if you push it enough. Moreover, why do many AWD systems try to mimic RWD behaviour?
You're assuming that AWD is penalized or banned because it is better. Cost may also be an issue. Weight is another. I'm not saying AWD isn't good but it's not the best out there, it's just one way of accomplishing the same goal. No matter how you try to cut it, if you're using the front wheels to power a vehicle, you are obviously reducing their ability to steer a car? Why do you think all AWD cars understeer? Even the Evo will understeer if you push it enough. Moreover, why do many AWD systems try to mimic RWD behaviour?
And for that they are superior compere to any other one.
you guys talking about the SS and the FWD like a good. But the fact is the worst set up from the 3 different type of drive.
The SS will under steer too, just like ANY FWD. Yes it does have less under steer then most of them , but still have it and more then the EVo.
For dry tarmac, smooth surface race, the RWD is a best.
The FWD , honestly dont know where is better then a RWD. SO i leave it that way.
Any other category goes for the AWD. Period.
Why they mimic the RWD ? Hm they dont mimic it they try to being balanced or neutral so they have to take away some Front biaesd attitude.
But dont think they try to over steer from certain point...
Its like , if you try to say, the RWD try be AWD because they try to make the car to do less over steer...
The goal is to being neutral in turns so you can decide what you want from the car in the turn.
And the Evo X is do it in a very impressive way.
So next time try to get the STI or other AWD car to being as an exaple.
on the side note, not all the awd car understeer, some over steer depend on the AWD set up, just make sure you know that.
Like the Porsche AWD. wich is not 50/50.
Last edited by Robevo RS; Oct 21, 2008 at 07:08 PM.
Oct 21, 2008, 07:04 PM
#187
You're comparing a a vastly more expensive, more powerful, lighter, purpose built sports car to a hopped up econobox sedan and you're trying to use that as an example as to the superiority of RWD?
Hey, a new GTR is faster around a track than a 1971 Chevy Vega. What exactly does this prove?
Hey, a new GTR is faster around a track than a 1971 Chevy Vega. What exactly does this prove?
Answer the Porsche question without ignoring it.
Answer the One Lap question without dancing around it.
Deny that a vast majority of all the fastest cars in all of motorsports are RWD.
Ferrous Crannus much?
Oct 21, 2008, 07:06 PM
#190
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Except your tires are charged with the duty of both accelerating or taking lateral loads and the simple fact that, regardless of tire, you get the advantage of using MORE of the available traction at all four corners to both hold lateral loads and accelerate by being able to use all four contact patches to plow forward, increasing your theoretical exit speeds.
Since the power is being split between all four wheels, the power can get to the ground better and a faster corner exit is achieved. This is the main benefit of AWD. In a RWD car when coming out of a corner, as you unwind the wheel and the tires have more available grip for accelerating, there still isn't enough grip available in just two tires to effectively put the power to the ground so the wheels spin rather than propelling the car forward.
However, when you put slicks on, this is no longer an issue and the benefits of AWD are neutralized and all you are left with is a heavier drivetrain that loses more power though it. Not only that, but typically a well set up RWD car can house wider wheels and tires and that make a huge difference. A vette (and trust me I hate to admit this because I hate vettes) can house a 335/30 tire on the back and when you are running slicks that means traction that even our EVOs just can't match.
It sucks but it's just the truth. Now the EVO is still a better car IMO because of the versatility and the fact that 99% of the time we drive on street tires which means that we have the advantage most of the time. Not only that, but an EVO with only basic bolt ons and a tune can put down lap times that match or even beat some of the most badass cars out there and when we are done, we can put 5 people in the car and hit the bars, or go grocery shopping, or drive in the snow and still haul ***, etc. Don't be discouraged, the EVO is still a bad *** car, but it's not the end all be all of performance cars. There are compromises like there are in every car.
Oct 21, 2008, 07:10 PM
#192
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That's a ridiculous comparison you've made for effect, and you know it.
Answer the Porsche question without ignoring it.
Answer the One Lap question without dancing around it.
Deny that a vast majority of all the fastest cars in all of motorsports are RWD.
Ferrous Crannus much?
Answer the Porsche question without ignoring it.
Answer the One Lap question without dancing around it.
Deny that a vast majority of all the fastest cars in all of motorsports are RWD.
Ferrous Crannus much?
I don't follow One Lap enough to comment or draw conclusions from the performance of any of the cars regardless of drivetrain layout. Anyway, this discussion is growing tired at this point.
Last edited by MrBonus; Oct 21, 2008 at 07:13 PM.
Oct 21, 2008, 07:14 PM
#195
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Well, tires only have so much available grip that they can devote to the either turning or accelerating. When you turn, the tire is using it's available grip for that purpose and there is less available grip for accelerating and vice versa. The advantage of AWD is that it can put the power to the ground under heavy acceleration and when you are coming out of a turn, you are unwinding the wheel and allowing the tires to use less traction for turning and more for acceleration.
Since the power is being split between all four wheels, the power can get to the ground better and a faster corner exit is achieved. This is the main benefit of AWD. In a RWD car when coming out of a corner, as you unwind the wheel and the tires have more available grip for accelerating, there still isn't enough grip available in just two tires to effectively put the power to the ground so the wheels spin rather than propelling the car forward.
However, when you put slicks on, this is no longer an issue and the benefits of AWD are neutralized and all you are left with is a heavier drivetrain that loses more power though it. Not only that, but typically a well set up RWD car can house wider wheels and tires and that make a huge difference. A vette (and trust me I hate to admit this because I hate vettes) can house a 335/30 tire on the back and when you are running slicks that means traction that even our EVOs just can't match.
It sucks but it's just the truth. Now the EVO is still a better car IMO because of the versatility and the fact that 99% of the time we drive on street tires which means that we have the advantage most of the time. Not only that, but an EVO with only basic bolt ons and a tune can put down lap times that match or even beat some of the most badass cars out there and when we are done, we can put 5 people in the car and hit the bars, or go grocery shopping, or drive in the snow and still haul ***, etc. Don't be discouraged, the EVO is still a bad *** car, but it's not the end all be all of performance cars. There are compromises like there are in every car.
Since the power is being split between all four wheels, the power can get to the ground better and a faster corner exit is achieved. This is the main benefit of AWD. In a RWD car when coming out of a corner, as you unwind the wheel and the tires have more available grip for accelerating, there still isn't enough grip available in just two tires to effectively put the power to the ground so the wheels spin rather than propelling the car forward.
However, when you put slicks on, this is no longer an issue and the benefits of AWD are neutralized and all you are left with is a heavier drivetrain that loses more power though it. Not only that, but typically a well set up RWD car can house wider wheels and tires and that make a huge difference. A vette (and trust me I hate to admit this because I hate vettes) can house a 335/30 tire on the back and when you are running slicks that means traction that even our EVOs just can't match.
It sucks but it's just the truth. Now the EVO is still a better car IMO because of the versatility and the fact that 99% of the time we drive on street tires which means that we have the advantage most of the time. Not only that, but an EVO with only basic bolt ons and a tune can put down lap times that match or even beat some of the most badass cars out there and when we are done, we can put 5 people in the car and hit the bars, or go grocery shopping, or drive in the snow and still haul ***, etc. Don't be discouraged, the EVO is still a bad *** car, but it's not the end all be all of performance cars. There are compromises like there are in every car.