Hawk HPS pads...who runs them..opinions?
Apr 14, 2010, 11:49 AM
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Hawk pads explained
First - analyze what Mitsu gave you on the car. The Brembo's are for the most part EXCELLENT brakes. Big, firm, and well made. Also - they do not use garden variety pads - they are much better than what you would get on any regular Mitsu car. So when looking for replacements you should realize where you started.
HPS stands for High Performance Street - (not track/autx or anything else) Hawk makes your shape in at least 5 other compounds to fit other needs.
HPS are a semi-metallic pad with some extended temperature resistance gained by the addition of carbon and other metals.
In comparison - a stock 'non-EVO' auto pad is 'ceramic' which really means we have reduced/replaced the metals with other materials to reduce NVH but at least some compromise on feel and wear would be anticipated. This is great when noise and dust are the goal such as a Camry or something but certainly lacking when performance is required such as on your EVO. So adding Hawk HPS pads to your Camry will definitely improve most performance aspects w/ some increase in the NVH aspects (noise/dust/grumble etc)
The stock EVO pads are certainly metallic - check the rotor lip after 20k miles. So now we are comparing one street performance pad to another. This is a more lateral move in terms of performance.
Moving on
HPS on an EVO (or STi or any car w/ factory Brembo's as there are many now)
The initial bite is not huge - it takes some pedal to 'engage' the rotor - but you should expect a decent linear pedal with good feel. Wear is also good when not overheated regularly and that is pretty easy to do on a 3500 lb rocket.
On a Subaru non STi - this pedal effort can make them feel not great when compared to stock pads which tend to grab all at once but operate much more like a switch. This is because the Subaru pedal is as soft as a brown banana. It is what it is.
We have not used Axxis Ultimates - but I think it's fair to say: (and Stoptech's new pads are modeled after these)
-The initial bite may appear to be more but they don't necessarily have any better feel. They are edge coded "FF" which is the same outside testing friction specification as Hawk HPS and most other moderate performance street pads.
I am looking at the Posi-Quiets and the 104 semi-metallics have an "EE" code. This is of course 'less' than FF.
Hawk HP+ are coded "GG" - more friction of course.
I'll try to upload some pics of the edge coding so you can see it. It's 'outside' testing so all "FF" pads will operate in a pretty narrow range of performance overall.
As far as Hawk in particular - they are very popular overall and users tend to agree - even on this forum where they are regularly bashed as junk. In my opinion they are also very often sold and used with incorrect expectations.
We've sold brakes for years and that includes thousands of Hawk HPS pads by now. In almost all cases - when usage and expectations are in line w/ reality we usually get a happy customer and when they are not we hear about it.
I hope that data helps the readers to understand the product(s) correctly. It may not be written perfectly but it should be technically accurate and I can edit/explain if need be. Back to my paying job for the moment though.
-Ken
First - analyze what Mitsu gave you on the car. The Brembo's are for the most part EXCELLENT brakes. Big, firm, and well made. Also - they do not use garden variety pads - they are much better than what you would get on any regular Mitsu car. So when looking for replacements you should realize where you started.
HPS stands for High Performance Street - (not track/autx or anything else) Hawk makes your shape in at least 5 other compounds to fit other needs.
HPS are a semi-metallic pad with some extended temperature resistance gained by the addition of carbon and other metals.
In comparison - a stock 'non-EVO' auto pad is 'ceramic' which really means we have reduced/replaced the metals with other materials to reduce NVH but at least some compromise on feel and wear would be anticipated. This is great when noise and dust are the goal such as a Camry or something but certainly lacking when performance is required such as on your EVO. So adding Hawk HPS pads to your Camry will definitely improve most performance aspects w/ some increase in the NVH aspects (noise/dust/grumble etc)
The stock EVO pads are certainly metallic - check the rotor lip after 20k miles. So now we are comparing one street performance pad to another. This is a more lateral move in terms of performance.
Moving on
HPS on an EVO (or STi or any car w/ factory Brembo's as there are many now)
The initial bite is not huge - it takes some pedal to 'engage' the rotor - but you should expect a decent linear pedal with good feel. Wear is also good when not overheated regularly and that is pretty easy to do on a 3500 lb rocket.
On a Subaru non STi - this pedal effort can make them feel not great when compared to stock pads which tend to grab all at once but operate much more like a switch. This is because the Subaru pedal is as soft as a brown banana. It is what it is.
We have not used Axxis Ultimates - but I think it's fair to say: (and Stoptech's new pads are modeled after these)
-The initial bite may appear to be more but they don't necessarily have any better feel. They are edge coded "FF" which is the same outside testing friction specification as Hawk HPS and most other moderate performance street pads.
I am looking at the Posi-Quiets and the 104 semi-metallics have an "EE" code. This is of course 'less' than FF.
Hawk HP+ are coded "GG" - more friction of course.
I'll try to upload some pics of the edge coding so you can see it. It's 'outside' testing so all "FF" pads will operate in a pretty narrow range of performance overall.
As far as Hawk in particular - they are very popular overall and users tend to agree - even on this forum where they are regularly bashed as junk. In my opinion they are also very often sold and used with incorrect expectations.
We've sold brakes for years and that includes thousands of Hawk HPS pads by now. In almost all cases - when usage and expectations are in line w/ reality we usually get a happy customer and when they are not we hear about it.
I hope that data helps the readers to understand the product(s) correctly. It may not be written perfectly but it should be technically accurate and I can edit/explain if need be. Back to my paying job for the moment though.
-Ken
Apr 14, 2010, 02:18 PM
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Hawk pads explained
First - analyze what Mitsu gave you on the car. The Brembo's are for the most part EXCELLENT brakes. Big, firm, and well made. Also - they do not use garden variety pads - they are much better than what you would get on any regular Mitsu car. So when looking for replacements you should realize where you started.
HPS stands for High Performance Street - (not track/autx or anything else) Hawk makes your shape in at least 5 other compounds to fit other needs.
HPS are a semi-metallic pad with some extended temperature resistance gained by the addition of carbon and other metals.
In comparison - a stock 'non-EVO' auto pad is 'ceramic' which really means we have reduced/replaced the metals with other materials to reduce NVH but at least some compromise on feel and wear would be anticipated. This is great when noise and dust are the goal such as a Camry or something but certainly lacking when performance is required such as on your EVO. So adding Hawk HPS pads to your Camry will definitely improve most performance aspects w/ some increase in the NVH aspects (noise/dust/grumble etc)
The stock EVO pads are certainly metallic - check the rotor lip after 20k miles. So now we are comparing one street performance pad to another. This is a more lateral move in terms of performance.
Moving on
HPS on an EVO (or STi or any car w/ factory Brembo's as there are many now)
The initial bite is not huge - it takes some pedal to 'engage' the rotor - but you should expect a decent linear pedal with good feel. Wear is also good when not overheated regularly and that is pretty easy to do on a 3500 lb rocket.
On a Subaru non STi - this pedal effort can make them feel not great when compared to stock pads which tend to grab all at once but operate much more like a switch. This is because the Subaru pedal is as soft as a brown banana. It is what it is.
We have not used Axxis Ultimates - but I think it's fair to say: (and Stoptech's new pads are modeled after these)
-The initial bite may appear to be more but they don't necessarily have any better feel. They are edge coded "FF" which is the same outside testing friction specification as Hawk HPS and most other moderate performance street pads.
I am looking at the Posi-Quiets and the 104 semi-metallics have an "EE" code. This is of course 'less' than FF.
Hawk HP+ are coded "GG" - more friction of course.
I'll try to upload some pics of the edge coding so you can see it. It's 'outside' testing so all "FF" pads will operate in a pretty narrow range of performance overall.
As far as Hawk in particular - they are very popular overall and users tend to agree - even on this forum where they are regularly bashed as junk. In my opinion they are also very often sold and used with incorrect expectations.
We've sold brakes for years and that includes thousands of Hawk HPS pads by now. In almost all cases - when usage and expectations are in line w/ reality we usually get a happy customer and when they are not we hear about it.
I hope that data helps the readers to understand the product(s) correctly. It may not be written perfectly but it should be technically accurate and I can edit/explain if need be. Back to my paying job for the moment though.
-Ken
First - analyze what Mitsu gave you on the car. The Brembo's are for the most part EXCELLENT brakes. Big, firm, and well made. Also - they do not use garden variety pads - they are much better than what you would get on any regular Mitsu car. So when looking for replacements you should realize where you started.
HPS stands for High Performance Street - (not track/autx or anything else) Hawk makes your shape in at least 5 other compounds to fit other needs.
HPS are a semi-metallic pad with some extended temperature resistance gained by the addition of carbon and other metals.
In comparison - a stock 'non-EVO' auto pad is 'ceramic' which really means we have reduced/replaced the metals with other materials to reduce NVH but at least some compromise on feel and wear would be anticipated. This is great when noise and dust are the goal such as a Camry or something but certainly lacking when performance is required such as on your EVO. So adding Hawk HPS pads to your Camry will definitely improve most performance aspects w/ some increase in the NVH aspects (noise/dust/grumble etc)
The stock EVO pads are certainly metallic - check the rotor lip after 20k miles. So now we are comparing one street performance pad to another. This is a more lateral move in terms of performance.
Moving on
HPS on an EVO (or STi or any car w/ factory Brembo's as there are many now)
The initial bite is not huge - it takes some pedal to 'engage' the rotor - but you should expect a decent linear pedal with good feel. Wear is also good when not overheated regularly and that is pretty easy to do on a 3500 lb rocket.
On a Subaru non STi - this pedal effort can make them feel not great when compared to stock pads which tend to grab all at once but operate much more like a switch. This is because the Subaru pedal is as soft as a brown banana. It is what it is.
We have not used Axxis Ultimates - but I think it's fair to say: (and Stoptech's new pads are modeled after these)
-The initial bite may appear to be more but they don't necessarily have any better feel. They are edge coded "FF" which is the same outside testing friction specification as Hawk HPS and most other moderate performance street pads.
I am looking at the Posi-Quiets and the 104 semi-metallics have an "EE" code. This is of course 'less' than FF.
Hawk HP+ are coded "GG" - more friction of course.
I'll try to upload some pics of the edge coding so you can see it. It's 'outside' testing so all "FF" pads will operate in a pretty narrow range of performance overall.
As far as Hawk in particular - they are very popular overall and users tend to agree - even on this forum where they are regularly bashed as junk. In my opinion they are also very often sold and used with incorrect expectations.
We've sold brakes for years and that includes thousands of Hawk HPS pads by now. In almost all cases - when usage and expectations are in line w/ reality we usually get a happy customer and when they are not we hear about it.
I hope that data helps the readers to understand the product(s) correctly. It may not be written perfectly but it should be technically accurate and I can edit/explain if need be. Back to my paying job for the moment though.
-Ken
Apr 14, 2010, 04:09 PM
#33
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I found this - the formatting was lost but it shows what I posted.
The first letter is fade at 250F - the second at 600F
There is an allowance for 'amount' of fade accepted at each temperature and we can see it's a pretty wide range so for sure 2 different FF pads may operate a bit more differently than I expected.
One good example are Ferodo DS2500's. They are FF just like HPS - but we know that while they don't have enormous bite - they do resist fade at high temps pretty well.
DOT Pad Codes
This two letter edge code mandated by the DOT, and painted on all street legal brake pads, will give you some indication of their ability to resist fade. But only if you know how to read them. However, because of the wide range involved in each letter, it is only a rough indication.
Explanation of D.O.T. Edge Codes Located on all Brake Pads Official D.O.T. Edge Code Coefficient of Friction (C.F.)
@ 250 F and @ 600 F Comments
EE 0.25 to 0.35 both temps 0-25% fade at 600 F possible
FE 0.25 to 0.35 @ 250 F
0.35 to 0.45 @ 600 F 2% to 44% fade at 600 F possible
FF 0.35 to 0.45 both temps 0-22% fade at 600 F possible
GG 0.45 to 0.55 Very Rare (LOL - HP+ anybody?)
HH 0.55 to 0.65 Carbon/Carbon only. (And race pads I suspect although some may be GG)
O.K. up to 3000 F where it glows
Notes: These edge codes are located on the edge of the friction material of every brake pad by government regulation, along with some other codes. The first letter is a grading of the C.F. at 250 F and the second letter is a grading of the material at 600 F. Each letter grade can actually have quite a range of C.F. But a difference in the letter grade from medium to hot temperature could be an indicator of fade. The letters can be in any order. Therefore FE pads fade when hot, and EF pads would not grab when cold.. Also, you should know that Steel on Steel has a C.F. of 0.25!! So EE pads have only marginally more torque than no pads at all! Therefore FF pads are usually considered the minimum for a high-performance pad.
Most pads I sell do have the edge code. The really cheap ones I stopped selling did not - so .....well...I stopped selling them for many reasons. Feedback was 'meh' at best.
I am pretty certain the OEM pads are FF. I can't prove it at the moment.
-Ken
The first letter is fade at 250F - the second at 600F
There is an allowance for 'amount' of fade accepted at each temperature and we can see it's a pretty wide range so for sure 2 different FF pads may operate a bit more differently than I expected.
One good example are Ferodo DS2500's. They are FF just like HPS - but we know that while they don't have enormous bite - they do resist fade at high temps pretty well.
DOT Pad Codes
This two letter edge code mandated by the DOT, and painted on all street legal brake pads, will give you some indication of their ability to resist fade. But only if you know how to read them. However, because of the wide range involved in each letter, it is only a rough indication.
Explanation of D.O.T. Edge Codes Located on all Brake Pads Official D.O.T. Edge Code Coefficient of Friction (C.F.)
@ 250 F and @ 600 F Comments
EE 0.25 to 0.35 both temps 0-25% fade at 600 F possible
FE 0.25 to 0.35 @ 250 F
0.35 to 0.45 @ 600 F 2% to 44% fade at 600 F possible
FF 0.35 to 0.45 both temps 0-22% fade at 600 F possible
GG 0.45 to 0.55 Very Rare (LOL - HP+ anybody?)
HH 0.55 to 0.65 Carbon/Carbon only. (And race pads I suspect although some may be GG)
O.K. up to 3000 F where it glows
Notes: These edge codes are located on the edge of the friction material of every brake pad by government regulation, along with some other codes. The first letter is a grading of the C.F. at 250 F and the second letter is a grading of the material at 600 F. Each letter grade can actually have quite a range of C.F. But a difference in the letter grade from medium to hot temperature could be an indicator of fade. The letters can be in any order. Therefore FE pads fade when hot, and EF pads would not grab when cold.. Also, you should know that Steel on Steel has a C.F. of 0.25!! So EE pads have only marginally more torque than no pads at all! Therefore FF pads are usually considered the minimum for a high-performance pad.
Most pads I sell do have the edge code. The really cheap ones I stopped selling did not - so .....well...I stopped selling them for many reasons. Feedback was 'meh' at best.
I am pretty certain the OEM pads are FF. I can't prove it at the moment.
-Ken
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