BBQman

I am curious to know if other forum users are having the same issues that I have been getting.
First off, I am not new to track brake pads, having 20+ years of experience selling and using on many types of cars.
I have extensive track experience so I do not think I am over braking the corners for the cars cornering ability.
Here is what happens.

Every long track I have lapped on this year creates braking issues in the form of pulsing brake pedal after anywhere between 2 laps and 2 sessions.
The problem is uneven brake pad tranfer layer to the discs. The cure is what I am looking for.
This problem is not an issue on short courses were I am constantly on the brakes.

I have tried OE rotors and then switched to DBA 4000 slotted, when I actually believed the discs were warped. ( They weren't after further inspection)
Everytime I have the pulsing brakes, I can lightly sand the discs and everything is fine. This tells me that it is indeed uneven transfer layer...

SO- I have tried all kinds of bedding procedures. Easy, long, hard braking, 24 cooling etc.
I have tried initially HAWK DTC70s and then 60s, then 30s all with the same results. Hawk techs said that I may have TOO much brakes and can't get the heat into them.... well my calipers are black since my last test day. They suggested BLUES of which I stopped selling several years ago- and these started to pulse on my OUT LAP at WGI.
I have tried Vortex pads ( new company supplying CASCAR) and their street pads do not pulse, but their short track Nascar compound does- after 2 sessions.

I know that their are probably many people running other brake pad compounds and are doing just fine. I think I have narrowed it down that the pads that I have tried are not the issue.
I may be doing something wrong with my bedding procedure.

FWIW, I own a Integra Type R and a ITS Civic Si and use Hawk pads ( DTC, HP+ etc) and HAVE NEVER had bedding issues and often raced the pads right from the box.
I have switched compound between runs and transits without transfer issues , so I pretty sure this is not my issue.


I would like to hear from anyone who has HAD brake compound transfer issues with and EVO X.

I have run this car on Street tires, O48rs and R6s, so I vary the cornering speeds and entry speeds- all producing the same issue.
My suspension is s basic street HSD coilover set up, and I use Gulf Competition RF1000 brake fluid ( like SRF).

Can anyone shed some light?

Thanks!!

blk-majik

iTrader: (6)

use a caliper (the measuring kind) and measure the distance between the top and bottom distance between all the rotors and back of the caliper (the brake part). To do this, remove the pads and use some lugs to tighten the rotors down. you might also have to compress the pistons if they're in the way.

the OEM mounting doesn't have the best tolerances and can often run the rotors a little crooked. Anything more than a 2mm difference between all four points of any one rotor should be addressed. this might cause what you're seeing.

BBQman

OK, this is the first I hear of this and requires looking into.

However, it may not explain why my street pads do not leave uneven transfer layer, but race compounds do.

BTW, I left the uneven transfer layer ( Hawk Blues) on the discs after WGI last week and drove home( on Vortex street pads) ....wobbly wobbly....
Then I beat the street pads on a short course Monday night (ASE) and effectively removed the uneven layer....although the brake compound was not sufficient to do all 30 minutes...

Boltz.

iTrader: (42)

You could be shocking the rotors (temp wise).

BBQman

This came up in a discussion with a few track guys. So my question was " how slow do I have to go" to build heat.

This was never an issue for any car I have ever tracked.

My last outing at WGI, I really really took it easy. Short shift the car, add 200 feet to braking zones, more cornering speed...anything that I could do to brake less initially.

Is it possible that the brake system on the EVO is so efficient that it is allowing me to abuse it to the point of failure- all this without prior warning?
Like any other car I have tracked lets you know when you are at the limit. The Evo has not once told me- hey back off, you are about to be brakeless....

I still have 3 track days left this year- 2 short course and then back to Mosport where the problem first manifested itself.
I would love to solve it by then or at that event.


BTW, the OE disc developed small micro cracks ( which normally wasnt a problem on the ITR) before I replaced them.
The DBAs, which very little track time, have also developed the same micro cracks.
Do you think that this may be part of the problem? I know that it is easy to say" put new discs " but I am not convinced.

Keep the ideas coming- it is appreciated.

spdracerut

iTrader: (2)

It might be as simple as adding ducting or needing to use a different pad compound. It has been my experience that I get pad transfer when the temperatures are too high for a specific pad compound. So the two solutions are to add cooling or change the pad compound.

Performance Friction pads are highly regarded for track use. You might want to research the PFC-01 compound.

GSXR

iTrader: (3)

I agree. You have too much heat going into the pads. I toasted my first set of track pads and started getting pad transfer with the same wobble that you mentioned. I added some cooling scoops for the next track event and that solved the wobble problem. I think I still need more cooling and will probably get some cooling ducts.

Don't forget you're trying to slow down 3500+ lbs and that builds up a ton of heat.

Callahan

Just get the most ridiculous race compound pad you can find. Swap them in for HPDEs and out for street use. Will be worth it in the long run I promise. It's what I did with my Porsche.

Robevo RS

iTrader: (16)

every car is different as you know , so i think you are over using your set up, as i think deep inside you know the same thing.
.Maybe the pads needs to be changed or so. It is your decision. You have experience.
I have stock rotors and calipers, but im using endless pads -fluids - brake lines.
My rotors regularly glowing since i use left foot brake to try to get more power out of the turns/ keep the boost up -rally race/ But my brakes are still feels just fine. No warping etc.

So i do think you just over using them. And maybe you dont let them cool down after the laps. I had one situation when i had to sitting still right after the check point and all my pads caught on fire. Then i felt some vibration after , but its gone now. I immediately ask to drive slowly back and forth to cool the brakes. Scary situation when you see the car all four side is smoking as hell.

this is how they look now after 4 rally /couple of hundred Super Stage miles - over 1500 mile rally , some times 8-9 mile stages/and last hill climb they just performed well, i'm planning to use them next year too:


and the second thought, loose the fog lights and get a RS grill instead, hugely help on cooling. ANd the car looks much much better

inslowoutfast

iTrader: (8)

When I was running my moderately modded VIII I always had the same issue. Always. Literally it felt like I was going to shake the dashboard loose and I think you know what I mean.

I did every sort of cooling from 2 piece rotors and AMS' ducting, all kinds of brake fluid and alternated between the DTC 70 and 60's for a total of 4 sets. Or how I like to look at it over a thousand dollars of brake pads.

I now have a X with only Performance friction PFC-01's with castrol SRF with the stock rotors with no issues what-so-ever. And this was at the Glen at a decent clip.

I will be back at the Glen Oct 2&3rd with a little more horsepower and hopefully a little quicker with the lap times. I'm hoping this setup will hold up. I'll keep you posted.

BBQman

Normally this would make sense , except for the fact that I do not get uneven transfer from "street" pads.
In addition, the Hawk blues that I tested the last outing at WGI, started to wobble ( uneven transfer) on my OUT LAP!!! There was not enough heat to say that I was overheating at that point. And, it was 60 degrees that morning, pretty damn cold if you asked me.
FWIW, as I continued to beat on the Blues, in frustration, they seemed to get better. I was told from a few guys that I may NOT be getting enough heat into my pads..... go figure...

Yes, PF01s are on my list to try, but that would mean that DTCs work on STIs but not on Evos? This is hard to understand.

BBQman

Out of curiousity, what lap times did you run and on what kind of tires? just trying to see similar scenerios and the results.

Thanks!!

BBQman

OK, I would like to think that I am killing my brakes and the can take the abuse, but how do you explain the uneven transfer on out laps? I have really been careful to cool brakes after runs , so I have eliminated this as the problem.


My latest update- this weekend I ran the car on Kuhmo XS tires, in cold and dirty track conditions. I was lazy, so I didnt swap in race pads ( why would I anyways as all I have been getting is grief!)
The track is Autodrome St-Eustache, a small roadcourse 1.5 miles long, very technical, with top speed being 4th gear 7000rpm.
The pads are Vortex Type 5 ( about like HP+). The fluid is still my old Gulf Competition RF1000 ( like SRF).
Car is stock, except for HSD coilovers.
The event is a timeattack, so I am not concerned about more than 10 minutes at a time - on track.

By days end, I broke the club record for sedans on street tires with a 59.991 ( will need to see if Robispec went faster in 2007 at the Redline Timeattack). This being very close to my 59.3 I did in May, when I was on R6s and just getting familar with the car.

Other than adjusting my braking points, the car braked fine, without and pulsing. I can say that the discs, pads and oil were as hot as they can possibly be, as this track has shorts starights and harsh braking zones.

What to do now?

weneversleep

I'm familiar with pad deposits: had horrible issues with this on my E36 M3.

However, I've never had an issue on my Evo X. I've run PFC01 pads, and I'm now running the CL RC6E pads. The CL pads are sintered, so the compound is different than other race pads.

I would recommend putting some new rotors on, and trying the CL RC pads. Contact Essex for which compounds is best for your track use. (I would suspect the RC6, but you may need something more aggressive.)

BBQman

Thanks again.

I see a trend here for PF01 and CL. I will be amazed if simple pad switch cures the problem, but at this point I am not ruling anything out.

I have a set of Gransport GSR "CASCAR" compound to try next week when I go to Mosport.

It's incredible to see how many partially used sets of pads I have in my track box- none of which work well......