spacers questions?
Dec 28, 2012, 06:05 PM
#2
H&R Trak+ DRMs or Ichiba V2s. Several of the site sponsors sell them.
I, personally, would stop at 15mm. This is a little less rough on your wheel bearings and will tuck inside a non-rolled rear fender with room to spare and no extra camber.
And scientific testing has shown that 20mm spacers will not get you any more hawties than 15s. tee hee
I, personally, would stop at 15mm. This is a little less rough on your wheel bearings and will tuck inside a non-rolled rear fender with room to spare and no extra camber.
And scientific testing has shown that 20mm spacers will not get you any more hawties than 15s. tee hee
Dec 29, 2012, 06:33 AM
#3
Here's a question marginally on topic. Do we know the maximum spacer width that can be used with a stock rim and still have 4 full turns of the lug nuts? If you use a 20 you may not have enough stud length for your nuts to seat properly. Please know, it's taken everything I have to avoid many an inappropriate comment here.
Dec 29, 2012, 09:41 AM
#4
You actually can't go thicker than 5mm with OE studs and OE rims and be safe, although I've seen cars (at autocrosses, of all places) running 8mm with OE studs. That's why I suggested Trak+ DRMs or Ichiba V2s; those are both the kind with a second set of studs built in. I won't even try to talk people into installing longer and stronger lugs. The rears are just too difficult.
edit: to be clear about why running 8mm slip-on spacers with OE lugs is crazy for autocrossing or open track or even just driving to grocery store: if you get standard, flat spacers, this means that the set-up is now lug-centric with insufficient lug-nut engagement and that's just begging for trouble. You can get a much better spacer, as long as you are running aftermarket wheels, that will keep the set-up hub-centric, but you still won't have enough engagement to be safe. (See next post.)
-
After a tad more time for thought, the one thing I might change in my suggestion in Post #2 is this: if you plan to run OE wheels in STU for autocrossing (and, maybe open track), then I might get 20mm spacers for the front and 15mm for the rear.
Why 5mm more in the front? Because race car.
No, seriously. OK, because the front of the car weighs more and, therefore, would benefit more from more track; because there's a tad less inside clearance in the front; because you want to keep the rear tires inside the fronts for autocrossing (if you're good enough to come close to the cones, at least); and because after flipping the front camber bolt, the front wheels will look like they aren't as far out and we can't have that, can we?
edit: to be clear about why running 8mm slip-on spacers with OE lugs is crazy for autocrossing or open track or even just driving to grocery store: if you get standard, flat spacers, this means that the set-up is now lug-centric with insufficient lug-nut engagement and that's just begging for trouble. You can get a much better spacer, as long as you are running aftermarket wheels, that will keep the set-up hub-centric, but you still won't have enough engagement to be safe. (See next post.)
-
After a tad more time for thought, the one thing I might change in my suggestion in Post #2 is this: if you plan to run OE wheels in STU for autocrossing (and, maybe open track), then I might get 20mm spacers for the front and 15mm for the rear.
Why 5mm more in the front? Because race car.
No, seriously. OK, because the front of the car weighs more and, therefore, would benefit more from more track; because there's a tad less inside clearance in the front; because you want to keep the rear tires inside the fronts for autocrossing (if you're good enough to come close to the cones, at least); and because after flipping the front camber bolt, the front wheels will look like they aren't as far out and we can't have that, can we?
Last edited by Iowa999; Dec 29, 2012 at 10:54 AM.
Dec 29, 2012, 10:45 AM
#5
Sorry. One last point on running OE wheels with spacers. As a tech inspector, I have to tell you that I really hate getting a car that has spacers and standard, closed-ended lug-nuts. My job is to make sure that the car is safe. I can ask the owner if he or she has long studs installed or how many turns of engagement there is, but I'm supposed to verify that the car is safe, not take their word for it.
I so much prefer it when all the cars I have to inspect have open-ended lug-nuts. I wish the SCCA would make this a rule. So, please, for the sake of tech inspectors everywhere, if you do add spacers, get some open-ended lug-nuts. A full set of open-ended Lexus nuts (which are perfect for our OE wheels) is less than $50.
I so much prefer it when all the cars I have to inspect have open-ended lug-nuts. I wish the SCCA would make this a rule. So, please, for the sake of tech inspectors everywhere, if you do add spacers, get some open-ended lug-nuts. A full set of open-ended Lexus nuts (which are perfect for our OE wheels) is less than $50.
Last edited by Iowa999; Dec 29, 2012 at 10:47 AM.
Dec 29, 2012, 11:32 AM
#6
You actually can't go thicker than 5mm with OE studs and OE rims and be safe, although I've seen cars (at autocrosses, of all places) running 8mm with OE studs. That's why I suggested Trak+ DRMs or Ichiba V2s; those are both the kind with a second set of studs built in. I won't even try to talk people into installing longer and stronger lugs. The rears are just too difficult.
edit: to be clear about why running 8mm slip-on spacers with OE lugs is crazy for autocrossing or open track or even just driving to grocery store: if you get standard, flat spacers, this means that the set-up is now lug-centric with insufficient lug-nut engagement and that's just begging for trouble. You can get a much better spacer, as long as you are running aftermarket wheels, that will keep the set-up hub-centric, but you still won't have enough engagement to be safe. (See next post.)
-
After a tad more time for thought, the one thing I might change in my suggestion in Post #2 is this: if you plan to run OE wheels in STU for autocrossing (and, maybe open track), then I might get 20mm spacers for the front and 15mm for the rear.
Why 5mm more in the front? Because race car.
No, seriously. OK, because the front of the car weighs more and, therefore, would benefit more from more track; because there's a tad less inside clearance in the front; because you want to keep the rear tires inside the fronts for autocrossing (if you're good enough to come close to the cones, at least); and because after flipping the front camber bolt, the front wheels will look like they aren't as far out and we can't have that, can we?
edit: to be clear about why running 8mm slip-on spacers with OE lugs is crazy for autocrossing or open track or even just driving to grocery store: if you get standard, flat spacers, this means that the set-up is now lug-centric with insufficient lug-nut engagement and that's just begging for trouble. You can get a much better spacer, as long as you are running aftermarket wheels, that will keep the set-up hub-centric, but you still won't have enough engagement to be safe. (See next post.)
-
After a tad more time for thought, the one thing I might change in my suggestion in Post #2 is this: if you plan to run OE wheels in STU for autocrossing (and, maybe open track), then I might get 20mm spacers for the front and 15mm for the rear.
Why 5mm more in the front? Because race car.
No, seriously. OK, because the front of the car weighs more and, therefore, would benefit more from more track; because there's a tad less inside clearance in the front; because you want to keep the rear tires inside the fronts for autocrossing (if you're good enough to come close to the cones, at least); and because after flipping the front camber bolt, the front wheels will look like they aren't as far out and we can't have that, can we?
To be honest, I don't know when I last saw stock lugs on a car at the track, thank goodness. It seems such an important and straightforward thing to change.
Dec 29, 2012, 12:28 PM
#7
I'm jumping the gun a bit, since they haven't even arrived for me to test, but if you have wheels with a centerbore of, say, 73mm like a lot of Enkeis, then you can get thin spacers that maintain a hub-centric set-up. These, plus long studs, is absolutely the way to go to deal with the slightly reduced inside clearance in the front and not have different offsets for front and rear wheels, so tire-rotation is still possible.
Open track folks are usually a bit more serious and safety-conscious, so it doesn't surprise me that you don't see closed-ended lugs. But at autocrosses, you see all sort of silly things. I've posted it before, but my all-time favorite lug-nut fiasco at an autocross is this:
Open track folks are usually a bit more serious and safety-conscious, so it doesn't surprise me that you don't see closed-ended lugs. But at autocrosses, you see all sort of silly things. I've posted it before, but my all-time favorite lug-nut fiasco at an autocross is this:
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Dec 29, 2012, 09:48 PM
#8
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The H&R Spacers are an EXCELLENT choice! Fully hubcentric, proper length studs are included too. Stay Safe and get the look and performance you want. I have ran these for many, many years and always been very, very happy!
Jan 1, 2013, 10:53 AM
#9
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15mm H&R TRAK+ Wheels Spacers Before & After
I know when i was researching wheel spacers, I wished I had some photos. Well here are a couple:
Before:
Installed:
After (i need to lower it bad now. it looks even higher now that it is spaced)
:
Before:
Installed:
After (i need to lower it bad now. it looks even higher now that it is spaced)
:
Jan 1, 2013, 01:47 PM
#10
Thanks for everyones input. Evilyeti what size are those ,15mm? Are the bolts to the hub suppose to be torqued to a specific?
From the info thus far my one concern is the issue with the hub bearings being worn does anyone have input on this exactly cause it seems that people are throwing that problem around.
From the info thus far my one concern is the issue with the hub bearings being worn does anyone have input on this exactly cause it seems that people are throwing that problem around.
Jan 1, 2013, 02:03 PM
#11
The OE offset puts the center of the wheel just about square with the wheel-bearing. Any offset lower than OE, therefore, puts an angular force through the bearing, when braking, when accelerating, and when just sitting there or cruising. This ages them faster.
How much faster? Well, that depends on a whole bunch of things. But keep in mind that the angular force isn't linear (it follows a sine function, instead) as you drop the offset. Thus, small changes, such as dropping down to +30 or so, aren't much of a big deal. But the next 8mm, from +30 to +22, would be about three times worse.
In any event, no-one can tell you how much sooner you'll need new wheel-bearings if you add spacers.
How much faster? Well, that depends on a whole bunch of things. But keep in mind that the angular force isn't linear (it follows a sine function, instead) as you drop the offset. Thus, small changes, such as dropping down to +30 or so, aren't much of a big deal. But the next 8mm, from +30 to +22, would be about three times worse.
In any event, no-one can tell you how much sooner you'll need new wheel-bearings if you add spacers.
Last edited by Iowa999; Jan 1, 2013 at 02:06 PM. Reason: deleted complicated issue
Jan 1, 2013, 02:51 PM
#12
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Thanks for everyones input. Evilyeti what size are those ,15mm? Are the bolts to the hub suppose to be torqued to a specific?
From the info thus far my one concern is the issue with the hub bearings being worn does anyone have input on this exactly cause it seems that people are throwing that problem around.
From the info thus far my one concern is the issue with the hub bearings being worn does anyone have input on this exactly cause it seems that people are throwing that problem around.
Jan 1, 2013, 03:58 PM
#14
The OE offset puts the center of the wheel just about square with the wheel-bearing. Any offset lower than OE, therefore, puts an angular force through the bearing, when braking, when accelerating, and when just sitting there or cruising. This ages them faster.
How much faster? Well, that depends on a whole bunch of things. But keep in mind that the angular force isn't linear (it follows a sine function, instead) as you drop the offset. Thus, small changes, such as dropping down to +30 or so, aren't much of a big deal. But the next 8mm, from +30 to +22, would be about three times worse.
In any event, no-one can tell you how much sooner you'll need new wheel-bearings if you add spacers.
How much faster? Well, that depends on a whole bunch of things. But keep in mind that the angular force isn't linear (it follows a sine function, instead) as you drop the offset. Thus, small changes, such as dropping down to +30 or so, aren't much of a big deal. But the next 8mm, from +30 to +22, would be about three times worse.
In any event, no-one can tell you how much sooner you'll need new wheel-bearings if you add spacers.
Jan 2, 2013, 07:13 AM
#15
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Thanks for everyones input. Evilyeti what size are those ,15mm? Are the bolts to the hub suppose to be torqued to a specific?
From the info thus far my one concern is the issue with the hub bearings being worn does anyone have input on this exactly cause it seems that people are throwing that problem around.
From the info thus far my one concern is the issue with the hub bearings being worn does anyone have input on this exactly cause it seems that people are throwing that problem around.