Need help chosing a proper coilover setup.
#46
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Coilovers usually have much higher spring-rates than OE. It takes more skill (and, therefore, more money) to make a damper than can control stiffer springs without blowing out. Thus, worthwhile coilovers cost much more than just swapping springs. Yeah, sure, they can sell you a coilover with stiff springs (so you can lower the car without bottoming out) for less money by including cruddy shocks. In fact, there are several companies based in Asia that make a lot of money doing exactly that (and there's enough 17-year-olds with Hondas to keep them in business). But you don't want their stuff on your car.
#48
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(Mostly to Fedja)
If you put GTWorx Tarmac (or Swift Spec R) springs on the GSR's KYBs, you will be underdamped (esp. in rebound) and won't be all that happy. The Billies from an MR can be revalved to match 5.5 kg springs for $100-150 each. Thus, if you get a good price on some used Billies, you can have a very nice 5.5 kg set-up for something around $1300. Yes, it's a bit of work, but that's probably the best option for a person with a GSR and less than $1500.
If you put GTWorx Tarmac (or Swift Spec R) springs on the GSR's KYBs, you will be underdamped (esp. in rebound) and won't be all that happy. The Billies from an MR can be revalved to match 5.5 kg springs for $100-150 each. Thus, if you get a good price on some used Billies, you can have a very nice 5.5 kg set-up for something around $1300. Yes, it's a bit of work, but that's probably the best option for a person with a GSR and less than $1500.
Remember that in my quest for the setup on my car, I have to keep stock springs, so most of this stuff doesn't apply to me. And I would have not waste any more money on buying inferior dumpers. Been there and done that...several times...thank you very much!!
In my case I have to find a good shocks that would be able to withstand softness of the stock springs with a tiny bit more low speed compression and a lot more rebound adjustments. If you want to help me, give me advice or three on those!!
Fedja
#49
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edit: one last point for those in snow states that are thinking of coilovers: on snow and ice, you do not want your ultra-cool 10 kg springs because you will die. You know what springs were on the Evo X that won the season-opening rally on snow? 200 #/inch, which is less than 4 kg.
Ones you bump spring rates, you also have to drop compression big amount as well and increase rebound heavily so it can control those new rates. Once this is done right, you will not suffer with higher spring rates as much as people usually are.
Fedja
#50
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But you knew this, so I'm not sure what the question (really) is.
We'll have to just disagree on springs for snow. IMO, you can't fix excessive spring with better shocks. On rough surfaces where grip is the issue, not handling, you fix the soft springs with $10k shocks with tri-gressive valving and hydraulic bump-stops. You don't start with too much spring and try to work down.
Last edited by Iowa999; Aug 27, 2013 at 11:01 AM.
#51
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This info came when I tried to see if I could have 8300 build for me, so as of right now that would be doable only for the rears. So, I am out of luck there.
Basically, I am trying to get a great shocks that would allow me to play with them for years to come and I would know I am doing the best I can with them!
We'll have to just disagree on springs for snow. IMO, you can't fix excessive spring with better shocks. On rough surfaces where grip is the issue, not handling, you fix the soft springs with $10k shocks with tri-gressive valving and hydraulic bump-stops. You don't start with too much spring and try to work down.
And because of the adjustabilty of the high speed compression, most of the bumps were non existent. If they could have made Forbes Fields in Topeka to feel smooth (especially on the North course), then anything will be smooth!!
So, just to clarify...I am not saying that is the way to go with your setup - put stiff springs and chase them down with shock adjustments. What I am trying to say is even heavy springs as those mentioned above were not an issue once controlled with great dumpers!
Fedja
#52
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As to Fortune 500s, I'm not the one to ask. I've had several squabbles about them on this site, but all based on plots, not direct experience. I also enjoy making fun of them for going on and on about "ultra digressive in rebound" as if the high-speed damping in rebound made any difference to anything.
I was thinking about an inch and a half would get my stance where I wanted it. But is there really nothing out there in that price range that will outperform an OEM suspension setup or springs? What is it about coilovers in that price range that won't meet my expectations?
Again, the primary reason why Iowa's so against it is because revalved billies + springs do work better, especially if you're the set it and forget it type. If you fancy things like camber adjustment and changing damper settings for track and street, the FA's are probably the best you can get for that price. However, you said it's all street, so I'm not sure if you'll find getting coils satisfactory over Iowa's recommendation.
In any case, and do believe this - you will want to install the roll center kit. It makes all the difference in the world, and the more you drop, the more that's apparent.
#53
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You had an OE center, right? Only Charles had the Cusco center, yes?
ps. back on topic, what Endless just wrote I agree with completely, right down to my getting a bit too much joy out of ragging on FA (which I'm trying to avoid)
#54
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Well, Cusco died sometimes last year and there are no parts or new ones to replace it with, so as of this year he is on 4 spiders without VC. As far as I know, there is marginal difference between those two setups. Car might be a bit tighter compared to before, but not that much to make it an issue in any case.
And sorry to be OT again!
Fedja
#55
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...I mean, my IX MR handled well with the stock Bilsteins and Swift Spec-R's, but it still didn't have a real "race feel" tight suspension. It was good - definitely better than stock, but still not stiff enough - it did produce some roll.
#56
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So, you guys firmly believe that my car will handle better with revalved Bilsteins/Swift-R vs some Fortune Coils dropped an additional .5" lower than the swifts? ....both with RCK obviously.
...I mean, my IX MR handled well with the stock Bilsteins and Swift Spec-R's, but it still didn't have a real "race feel" tight suspension. It was good - definitely better than stock, but still not stiff enough - it did produce some roll.
...I mean, my IX MR handled well with the stock Bilsteins and Swift Spec-R's, but it still didn't have a real "race feel" tight suspension. It was good - definitely better than stock, but still not stiff enough - it did produce some roll.
Street-wise, you've already heard our recommendations. If a stiffer ride would yield better confidence for you, then perhaps the FA coils are a better choice. However, you do need to dial it in properly. They're budget coils, yes, but even that needs to be dialed in for best performance.
Again, it's personal preferences. Nobody will knock you for choosing one or the other; choose whichever that will best match your driving style, in your driving situation. Look at it this way - handling-wise, if you're not confident enough to milk a suspension that may roll, then you won't feel as comfortable approaching a turn as opposed to using stiffer coils, and thus will have less fun overall. If stiffer suspension means more excitement for you, go for it. You'll sacrifice some levels of comfort and some performance, if the coils aren't set up properly, but again, it's personal preference. I currently run FA coils, and I find it totally acceptable for the street and my driving style. No matter what you end up with, at the end of the day, it's whatever that best suits your way of driving that will bring you the biggest smile.
#57
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Just make sure whoever rebuilds those Bilsteins is doing a good job and matches them with your springs of choice!
Fedja
#58
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I figured you were using stiffness as a yardstick. This is where it comes down to personal preferences. Just because it rolls doesn't necessarily mean it's "worse," it depends on where and how you're using the car. Conversely, just because it's rock hard doesn't equate to a better handling car, especially on the streets.
Street-wise, you've already heard our recommendations. If a stiffer ride would yield better confidence for you, then perhaps the FA coils are a better choice. However, you do need to dial it in properly. They're budget coils, yes, but even that needs to be dialed in for best performance.
Again, it's personal preferences. Nobody will knock you for choosing one or the other; choose whichever that will best match your driving style, in your driving situation. Look at it this way - handling-wise, if you're not confident enough to milk a suspension that may roll, then you won't feel as comfortable approaching a turn as opposed to using stiffer coils, and thus will have less fun overall. If stiffer suspension means more excitement for you, go for it. You'll sacrifice some levels of comfort and some performance, if the coils aren't set up properly, but again, it's personal preference. I currently run FA coils, and I find it totally acceptable for the street and my driving style. No matter what you end up with, at the end of the day, it's whatever that best suits your way of driving that will bring you the biggest smile.
Street-wise, you've already heard our recommendations. If a stiffer ride would yield better confidence for you, then perhaps the FA coils are a better choice. However, you do need to dial it in properly. They're budget coils, yes, but even that needs to be dialed in for best performance.
Again, it's personal preferences. Nobody will knock you for choosing one or the other; choose whichever that will best match your driving style, in your driving situation. Look at it this way - handling-wise, if you're not confident enough to milk a suspension that may roll, then you won't feel as comfortable approaching a turn as opposed to using stiffer coils, and thus will have less fun overall. If stiffer suspension means more excitement for you, go for it. You'll sacrifice some levels of comfort and some performance, if the coils aren't set up properly, but again, it's personal preference. I currently run FA coils, and I find it totally acceptable for the street and my driving style. No matter what you end up with, at the end of the day, it's whatever that best suits your way of driving that will bring you the biggest smile.
The other thing I wasn't quite fond of with my IX was even though it was better than stock and wasn't quite "monster truck status", it was still "pickup truck status". lol...
So while I am aiming more for performance than looks, I do still want to go a tad lower than just springs, but without sacrificing performance.
If I go this route, I will be sending them directly to Bilstein.
#59
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Assuming that people are having Bilstein do the work and are sending their shocks to the place in Poway, CA, the trick is to discuss what you want in advance and then include some kind of reminder in the box. Otherwise, they might just rebuild to the default.
You, absolutely, can ask for a tad less high-speed compression and a ton more low-speed rebound, such that the shocks will now work well with the 5.5 kg springs from GTWorx or Swift. In fact, given how cool and helpful he is, asking Andrew from GTWorx what he would suggest might be a good place to start. Plus, for all I know, GTWorx might rebuild Billies in house.
You, absolutely, can ask for a tad less high-speed compression and a ton more low-speed rebound, such that the shocks will now work well with the 5.5 kg springs from GTWorx or Swift. In fact, given how cool and helpful he is, asking Andrew from GTWorx what he would suggest might be a good place to start. Plus, for all I know, GTWorx might rebuild Billies in house.