Iowa999

iTrader: (1)

Coilovers usually have much higher spring-rates than OE. It takes more skill (and, therefore, more money) to make a damper than can control stiffer springs without blowing out. Thus, worthwhile coilovers cost much more than just swapping springs. Yeah, sure, they can sell you a coilover with stiff springs (so you can lower the car without bottoming out) for less money by including cruddy shocks. In fact, there are several companies based in Asia that make a lot of money doing exactly that (and there's enough 17-year-olds with Hondas to keep them in business). But you don't want their stuff on your car.

CtSilver03Evo

iTrader: (9)

And would you imply that something like the Fortune 500 coilovers are exactly that? Or even BC?

MrAWD

Why is this mostly for me??

Remember that in my quest for the setup on my car, I have to keep stock springs, so most of this stuff doesn't apply to me. And I would have not waste any more money on buying inferior dumpers. Been there and done that...several times...thank you very much!!

In my case I have to find a good shocks that would be able to withstand softness of the stock springs with a tiny bit more low speed compression and a lot more rebound adjustments. If you want to help me, give me advice or three on those!!

Fedja

MrAWD

I have been running for several winters my car with over 500 lb of wheel rates and never had any issues - this is for the Boston area!! The spring is really not an enemy here! Usually, typical shocks you can get are meant to work with lower spring rates and they have to compensate it with extra compression build in. That is what makes the car hard to drive in most cases.

Ones you bump spring rates, you also have to drop compression big amount as well and increase rebound heavily so it can control those new rates. Once this is done right, you will not suffer with higher spring rates as much as people usually are.

Fedja

Iowa999

iTrader: (1)

You have an SE, so you have Billies. They can be revalved to almost anything.

But you knew this, so I'm not sure what the question (really) is.

We'll have to just disagree on springs for snow. IMO, you can't fix excessive spring with better shocks. On rough surfaces where grip is the issue, not handling, you fix the soft springs with $10k shocks with tri-gressive valving and hydraulic bump-stops. You don't start with too much spring and try to work down.

MrAWD

You are right about the Billies! But, I heard, actually it was last night, that they have to have some kind of hats at the top of the body in order to be serviceable. If they are pressed in at the top, then the thing is much harder to do. If someone has any more info on this, I would appreciate it!

This info came when I tried to see if I could have 8300 build for me, so as of right now that would be doable only for the rears. So, I am out of luck there.

Basically, I am trying to get a great shocks that would allow me to play with them for years to come and I would know I am doing the best I can with them!

On my 2G DSM I ran 800/750 front/rear all year around with 8760s on them. And to make it even more interesting when racing on asphalt on 245 Hoosiers at that time, I didn't even change the settings between the autoX and street driving. For more grippy surface, I had to add more rebound in the rear, so car would rotate better.

And because of the adjustabilty of the high speed compression, most of the bumps were non existent. If they could have made Forbes Fields in Topeka to feel smooth (especially on the North course), then anything will be smooth!!

So, just to clarify...I am not saying that is the way to go with your setup - put stiff springs and chase them down with shock adjustments. What I am trying to say is even heavy springs as those mentioned above were not an issue once controlled with great dumpers!

Fedja

EndlessRed

iTrader: (17)

Here's the thing - Iowa loves to make fun of Fortune Auto. Mostly well-deserved, but putting FA's "great" PR aside, their coils are probably the best you can get in the sub-$1500 range. Iowa's biggest gripe, as already mentioned, is that a lot of cheap coils don't have the proper shocks to match the springs, or they slap on custom spring rates without properly revalving the shocks to match. Most of that is true, and Fortune Auto's coils are (likely) guilty of the latter. Beyond that, if you get the FA500 with the Swift springs and roller bearings, they're probably the best you can get as far as coils are concerned. They're not perfect, but for the stock 8kg/8kg springs they sell for street, it's a good match. I'm currently running them with 8kg/7kg with longer rear springs. Alternatively, if you're willing to plop down a bit more, you can get the Eibach R1, but you'll still need to match them with top hats.

Again, the primary reason why Iowa's so against it is because revalved billies + springs do work better, especially if you're the set it and forget it type. If you fancy things like camber adjustment and changing damper settings for track and street, the FA's are probably the best you can get for that price. However, you said it's all street, so I'm not sure if you'll find getting coils satisfactory over Iowa's recommendation.

In any case, and do believe this - you will want to install the roll center kit. It makes all the difference in the world, and the more you drop, the more that's apparent.

Iowa999

iTrader: (1)

We're way OT, but Wow! I knew you had 800# fronts (since I did, too), but I had no idea that you had 750# rears. That's insane and makes me rethink (i.e., admit I was wrong) about good shocks making too much spring work. Very interesting.

You had an OE center, right? Only Charles had the Cusco center, yes?

ps. back on topic, what Endless just wrote I agree with completely, right down to my getting a bit too much joy out of ragging on FA (which I'm trying to avoid)

MrAWD

Now seeing those numbers again from you I am thinking again and your surprise was correct! Rears used to be 650s and they are probably at the same place. Sorry for this!

Well, Cusco died sometimes last year and there are no parts or new ones to replace it with, so as of this year he is on 4 spiders without VC. As far as I know, there is marginal difference between those two setups. Car might be a bit tighter compared to before, but not that much to make it an issue in any case.

And sorry to be OT again!

Fedja

CtSilver03Evo

iTrader: (9)

So, you guys firmly believe that my car will handle better with revalved Bilsteins/Swift-R vs some Fortune Coils dropped an additional .5" lower than the swifts? ....both with RCK obviously.

...I mean, my IX MR handled well with the stock Bilsteins and Swift Spec-R's, but it still didn't have a real "race feel" tight suspension. It was good - definitely better than stock, but still not stiff enough - it did produce some roll.

EndlessRed

iTrader: (17)

I figured you were using stiffness as a yardstick. This is where it comes down to personal preferences. Just because it rolls doesn't necessarily mean it's "worse," it depends on where and how you're using the car. Conversely, just because it's rock hard doesn't equate to a better handling car, especially on the streets.

Street-wise, you've already heard our recommendations. If a stiffer ride would yield better confidence for you, then perhaps the FA coils are a better choice. However, you do need to dial it in properly. They're budget coils, yes, but even that needs to be dialed in for best performance.

Again, it's personal preferences. Nobody will knock you for choosing one or the other; choose whichever that will best match your driving style, in your driving situation. Look at it this way - handling-wise, if you're not confident enough to milk a suspension that may roll, then you won't feel as comfortable approaching a turn as opposed to using stiffer coils, and thus will have less fun overall. If stiffer suspension means more excitement for you, go for it. You'll sacrifice some levels of comfort and some performance, if the coils aren't set up properly, but again, it's personal preference. I currently run FA coils, and I find it totally acceptable for the street and my driving style. No matter what you end up with, at the end of the day, it's whatever that best suits your way of driving that will bring you the biggest smile.

MrAWD

Hell yes!
Just make sure whoever rebuilds those Bilsteins is doing a good job and matches them with your springs of choice!

Lack of proper rebound will do that to the car. It will take forever to set and once it does it, it will move again before the next straight away...not what you call "race feel"!!

Fedja

CtSilver03Evo

iTrader: (9)

That makes sense. For me, the body roll strikes fear into my heart and I feel under-confident in the car's cornering ability. As it is, it's already strange getting used to driving the X into turns vs my old IX. The car reacts very differently.

The other thing I wasn't quite fond of with my IX was even though it was better than stock and wasn't quite "monster truck status", it was still "pickup truck status". lol...

So while I am aiming more for performance than looks, I do still want to go a tad lower than just springs, but without sacrificing performance.

If I go this route, I will be sending them directly to Bilstein.

Iowa999

iTrader: (1)

Assuming that people are having Bilstein do the work and are sending their shocks to the place in Poway, CA, the trick is to discuss what you want in advance and then include some kind of reminder in the box. Otherwise, they might just rebuild to the default.

You, absolutely, can ask for a tad less high-speed compression and a ton more low-speed rebound, such that the shocks will now work well with the 5.5 kg springs from GTWorx or Swift. In fact, given how cool and helpful he is, asking Andrew from GTWorx what he would suggest might be a good place to start. Plus, for all I know, GTWorx might rebuild Billies in house.

CtSilver03Evo

iTrader: (9)

How would the dynamics of this convo change (if at all), if I were to condier a Fortune 510 series coilover with Swift springs on them and roller bearings?