Need help chosing a proper coilover setup.
Jul 22, 2013, 07:59 AM
#1
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Need help chosing a proper coilover setup.
Hey Guys,
I've always been very engine/turbo-performance oriented, and never had a crazy desire to play with suspension setups much. I sold my IX which was heavily modified last Fall, and I am going to be picking up a new X this week.
I plan to put some Advan RS II wheels on the car, and lower it almost immediately. I don't however intend to lower it entirely for looks. I would like the car to perform better in turns and drive well on public roads.
Having said that- the car will NOT be a track car. It will be entirely street driven, and I'm looking to lower the car but improve handling. I don't want to sacrifice handling for ride drop - as I know some springs will do that to the already well-performing suspension. In the past I used Swift Spec-R's on my factory Bilsteins, and liked the ride, but it wasn't low enough for me. That being said, I'm going with a coilover, and am looking for a good option based on the info I provided.
Also, systems with EDC would be nice, but are not necessary if the cost difference is huge.
Thanks in advance for any help and advice!
I've always been very engine/turbo-performance oriented, and never had a crazy desire to play with suspension setups much. I sold my IX which was heavily modified last Fall, and I am going to be picking up a new X this week.
I plan to put some Advan RS II wheels on the car, and lower it almost immediately. I don't however intend to lower it entirely for looks. I would like the car to perform better in turns and drive well on public roads.
Having said that- the car will NOT be a track car. It will be entirely street driven, and I'm looking to lower the car but improve handling. I don't want to sacrifice handling for ride drop - as I know some springs will do that to the already well-performing suspension. In the past I used Swift Spec-R's on my factory Bilsteins, and liked the ride, but it wasn't low enough for me. That being said, I'm going with a coilover, and am looking for a good option based on the info I provided.
Also, systems with EDC would be nice, but are not necessary if the cost difference is huge.
Thanks in advance for any help and advice!
Jul 22, 2013, 08:16 AM
#2
Let's deal with the easy one: EDC is a gimmick to remove money from people who fall for gimmicks.
As to the real question, your post is a tad schizophrenic. You say that you don't intend to lower the car entirely for looks, but also say that some lowering springs aren't low enough. Well, springs that lower the car only a bit (such as GTWorx Tarmacs) only lower the car a bit because any lower will actually hurt the handling unless you make other changes, such as correcting the front roll-center height. In other words, lowering an X more than about an inch can hurt the handling.
Are you willing to do the additional work to maintain the very-good handling of an X when you lower by more than an inch? If not, then what's more important to you: the handling or being lower than that?
tl;dr KW V3s
As to the real question, your post is a tad schizophrenic. You say that you don't intend to lower the car entirely for looks, but also say that some lowering springs aren't low enough. Well, springs that lower the car only a bit (such as GTWorx Tarmacs) only lower the car a bit because any lower will actually hurt the handling unless you make other changes, such as correcting the front roll-center height. In other words, lowering an X more than about an inch can hurt the handling.
Are you willing to do the additional work to maintain the very-good handling of an X when you lower by more than an inch? If not, then what's more important to you: the handling or being lower than that?
tl;dr KW V3s
Jul 22, 2013, 08:43 AM
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Let's deal with the easy one: EDC is a gimmick to remove money from people who fall for gimmicks.
As to the real question, your post is a tad schizophrenic. You say that you don't intend to lower the car entirely for looks, but also say that some lowering springs aren't low enough. Well, springs that lower the car only a bit (such as GTWorx Tarmacs) only lower the car a bit because any lower will actually hurt the handling unless you make other changes, such as correcting the front roll-center height. In other words, lowering an X more than about an inch can hurt the handling.
Are you willing to do the additional work to maintain the very-good handling of an X when you lower by more than an inch? If not, then what's more important to you: the handling or being lower than that?
tl;dr KW V3s
As to the real question, your post is a tad schizophrenic. You say that you don't intend to lower the car entirely for looks, but also say that some lowering springs aren't low enough. Well, springs that lower the car only a bit (such as GTWorx Tarmacs) only lower the car a bit because any lower will actually hurt the handling unless you make other changes, such as correcting the front roll-center height. In other words, lowering an X more than about an inch can hurt the handling.
Are you willing to do the additional work to maintain the very-good handling of an X when you lower by more than an inch? If not, then what's more important to you: the handling or being lower than that?
tl;dr KW V3s
If I bring the car down lower than an aftermarket spring, what is necessary to improve handling? In other words, what other suspension components would be required to help with a drop like that?
Jul 22, 2013, 08:59 AM
#4
As I said above, the key is the front roll-center height. Let me try to explain this in a way that is about 90% accurate, but a lot easier to follow than the technical story.
When you are cornering, a lot of (compression) force acts through the outside front lower control arm. In a way, it's this arm that is pushing the nose of the car to the inside of the turn.
If that control arm is angling up from the wheel to the chassis, as it is stock, then the force is not only pushing the nose of the car to the inside of the turn, it is also pushing up. The upward part of the push acts against body-roll, since it is pushing up at a point that is to the outside of center.
When you lower the car, the angle between the knuckle and the chassis flattens out. When you over-lower, it can angle down from the knuckle to the chassis. When you've gone that far (as in: angled down), the inward push on that control arm is no longer helping to fight body-roll, it is now adding extra body-roll because it is pushing down on the outside half of the car, instead of pushing up, as it was stock. So you get a lot of extra body-roll from this. [It also alters how much of the weight transfer is controlled by the shocks, etc, but that's the technical side that I'm going to leave out of this post.]
Now, many people will tell you that lowering the car reduces body-roll because it lowers the CG of the car and, thereby, reduces weight transfer. They are correct about this, but they are only taking weight transfer into account. There are several things that all influence body-roll and weight transfer is only one of them. The geometry of the suspension is as important (if not more) than mere CG height. Screwing up the geometry by over-lowering almost always hurts more than the gains due to a lower CG.
What's the solution? Answer: a new set of lower ball-joints and steering ends that makes the front lower control arm angle up from knuckle to chassis. This is what people are talking about when they write "RCK" (which is the acronym for "roll-center kit" or "roll-center correction kit"). If you lower an Evo X by more than an inch, you need this to maintain the proper angle for the front lower control arms.
When you are cornering, a lot of (compression) force acts through the outside front lower control arm. In a way, it's this arm that is pushing the nose of the car to the inside of the turn.
If that control arm is angling up from the wheel to the chassis, as it is stock, then the force is not only pushing the nose of the car to the inside of the turn, it is also pushing up. The upward part of the push acts against body-roll, since it is pushing up at a point that is to the outside of center.
When you lower the car, the angle between the knuckle and the chassis flattens out. When you over-lower, it can angle down from the knuckle to the chassis. When you've gone that far (as in: angled down), the inward push on that control arm is no longer helping to fight body-roll, it is now adding extra body-roll because it is pushing down on the outside half of the car, instead of pushing up, as it was stock. So you get a lot of extra body-roll from this. [It also alters how much of the weight transfer is controlled by the shocks, etc, but that's the technical side that I'm going to leave out of this post.]
Now, many people will tell you that lowering the car reduces body-roll because it lowers the CG of the car and, thereby, reduces weight transfer. They are correct about this, but they are only taking weight transfer into account. There are several things that all influence body-roll and weight transfer is only one of them. The geometry of the suspension is as important (if not more) than mere CG height. Screwing up the geometry by over-lowering almost always hurts more than the gains due to a lower CG.
What's the solution? Answer: a new set of lower ball-joints and steering ends that makes the front lower control arm angle up from knuckle to chassis. This is what people are talking about when they write "RCK" (which is the acronym for "roll-center kit" or "roll-center correction kit"). If you lower an Evo X by more than an inch, you need this to maintain the proper angle for the front lower control arms.
Last edited by Iowa999; Jul 22, 2013 at 09:40 AM.
Jul 22, 2013, 09:04 AM
#5
One other thing/part. When you lower an X below a certain point, the rear toe-arms will no longer have enough range of adjustability to align the car correctly. You need aftermarket, adjustable toe-arms.
Those are the parts needed to properly lower a pavement-only Evo X: a RCK and new rear toe-arms.
Those are the parts needed to properly lower a pavement-only Evo X: a RCK and new rear toe-arms.
Last edited by Iowa999; Jul 22, 2013 at 09:40 AM.
Jul 22, 2013, 09:53 AM
#6
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Awesome explanation. Makes perfect sense. Thank you!
Now, onto the actual products - anyone have recommendations on which coilover setups are best suited for a car like mine?
Now, onto the actual products - anyone have recommendations on which coilover setups are best suited for a car like mine?
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Jul 23, 2013, 06:57 AM
#10
I'd say that if money is no object, contact a reputable shop like Muellerized (www.muellerized.com). They will ask you a lot of questions about what your overall goal is with the car prior to specifying a setup for you. I had them setup my suspension for my last car and the car was night/day difference. Car handled great. It was worth the extra time/money to go thru them for the correct setup for my car.
Bias opinion yes, but I have had very good luck with Muellerized, they will treat you right.
Bias opinion yes, but I have had very good luck with Muellerized, they will treat you right.
Jul 23, 2013, 09:14 AM
#12
I'd say that if money is no object, contact a reputable shop like Muellerized (www.muellerized.com). They will ask you a lot of questions about what your overall goal is with the car prior to specifying a setup for you. I had them setup my suspension for my last car and the car was night/day difference. Car handled great. It was worth the extra time/money to go thru them for the correct setup for my car.
Bias opinion yes, but I have had very good luck with Muellerized, they will treat you right.
Bias opinion yes, but I have had very good luck with Muellerized, they will treat you right.
For those who want to hand the car to an expert and let said expert set the car up, Mueller is a good option (assuming that you're on the left coast, which the thread-starter is not, so the suggestion of Mueller was a bit strange). For those who want to understand their own set-up, not so much.
Jul 24, 2013, 08:48 AM
#13
While I will not criticize the set-ups that John Mueller produces (since the times put down by cars he has worked on speak for themselves), whether they "treat you right" is a matter of perspective. His policy of not telling the customer what he did to the car is, well, a bit off-putting to me. Maybe that has changed, but it was still true last time I checked.
For those who want to hand the car to an expert and let said expert set the car up, Mueller is a good option (assuming that you're on the left coast, which the thread-starter is not, so the suggestion of Mueller was a bit strange). For those who want to understand their own set-up, not so much.
For those who want to hand the car to an expert and let said expert set the car up, Mueller is a good option (assuming that you're on the left coast, which the thread-starter is not, so the suggestion of Mueller was a bit strange). For those who want to understand their own set-up, not so much.
Doesn't matter if your in SoCal or not, my suspension was shipped out to me and Im in NE Ohio. Would it be better to just hand them the car and let them work, yes, but you can still get a good suspension from them outside of living in SoCal.
It all depends on what someone wants. I have little to no time to spend on learning the ins/outs of proper coilover set ups so I am willing to pay someone who knows their stuff a bit more to just do it. If the original poster wants to really get into knowing his setup and customizing it to his personal liking, then I would say stay clear of shops like Mueller or RobiSpec and spec out what you want, it just takes a lot of reading, trial, error, tweeking.
To each their own I guess.
Jul 24, 2013, 09:39 AM
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While I will not criticize the set-ups that John Mueller produces (since the times put down by cars he has worked on speak for themselves), whether they "treat you right" is a matter of perspective. His policy of not telling the customer what he did to the car is, well, a bit off-putting to me. Maybe that has changed, but it was still true last time I checked.
For those who want to hand the car to an expert and let said expert set the car up, Mueller is a good option (assuming that you're on the left coast, which the thread-starter is not, so the suggestion of Mueller was a bit strange). For those who want to understand their own set-up, not so much.
For those who want to hand the car to an expert and let said expert set the car up, Mueller is a good option (assuming that you're on the left coast, which the thread-starter is not, so the suggestion of Mueller was a bit strange). For those who want to understand their own set-up, not so much.
Jul 25, 2013, 01:55 PM
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Must say that the first time ive heard that phrase used...^^
Im in the same boat as our pal here and need help on choosing a set up. I do mostly street driving but want something that will perform decent on the autocross track. I should also mention this is my first coilover so i dont want anything too elaborate with external resevoirs and ****.
Leaning towards BC racing BRs...comments?
I am butting in in hopes it helps the author of this thread.
Im in the same boat as our pal here and need help on choosing a set up. I do mostly street driving but want something that will perform decent on the autocross track. I should also mention this is my first coilover so i dont want anything too elaborate with external resevoirs and ****.
Leaning towards BC racing BRs...comments?
I am butting in in hopes it helps the author of this thread.