Aar0nsite

titanium whip... thats something worth taking an eye to... hmm i trust ally in terms of performance... i just hope mitsu does it right the first time! the evo X is my only choice for a cool new car... if not then ill hav to wait till something new, cool, and japanese to come around... PLZ MITSU! MAKE THIS ONE A SURE SHOT!!!

chuntington101

i have to agree with you, like for like, iron IS stronger and will handle more power! sorry guys but this is the case!....

....but i still think the 4B11T will match the 4G63.

also if this engine is used by other companies, then the price for a new motor (when the tuners blow them up trying to make more power than the 4G63s) will reduce.

thanks Chris.

chuntington101

yes this is right, but only the coldside stuff!

the hotside now use very cool nickle stuff. single crystal or something.

be nice to see Ti rods in the new motor! bit like GM din with the LS7.

Chris.

modvp

iTrader: (13)

Guys, what’s the big hiss about the new 4B11T engine not being able to withstand the hp capacity that the old 4G63 cast iron block is capable of withstanding? Nonsense! Remember in the early 80’s when Audi redesigned their sport Quattro coupe (the S1)? Well, the homologated road car came with a re-designed aluminum alloy block, that saved a reported >50lbs compared to the cast iron 2144cc 5-cylinder block (the alloy block had 5-cylinders and 2133 cc). That engine, in race trim, was capable of producing well over 600 hp. That was before 1985 when there were no fancy electronic knock control and engine management systems available as there are today.

ITEM9

iTrader: (3)

Not true. Pound for pound, aluminum is stronger. That's why we use Al; because of its strength-to-weight ratio. Another benefit is its heat conductivity.

You just need more aluminum volumetrically as compared to iron or steel.

One disadvantage of Aluminum is its fatigue properties. Ferrous materials and some titanium alloys have a fatigue limit, under which they can be cycled indefinately without failure. All other metals have no fatigue limit and if given enough cycles, even the smallest stresses will cause it to fail eventually.

I don't think fatigue will be a deciding factor of modders though. Perhaps if kept stock, a 4G63 block will last forever, maybe. Only if kept under the fatigue limit, which may or may not be the case. However, if one is going to increase power output, it's very likely you will be over the limit and the block will fail eventually from fatigue as you would aluminum. I would think iron would be able to handle more cycles though, but I'm not sure.

An Al engine has a design life to it. It will fail eventually, even in stock form. This however, may occur well beyond a typical use of the vehicle. Just a guess, but I would think after 15-20 years of daily use.

You guys should read up on Al:

Wiki Aluminum Page

Kooldino

iTrader: (1)

Exactly. So for a given block size, the iron one will be stronger than the steel one. But it shouldn't really matter too much as the 4b11 has iron sleeves.

Kooldino

iTrader: (1)

Whoa whoa whoa. Ti rods? In the Evo X motor or all of the 4B11s? Source?

Kooldino

iTrader: (1)

bingo.

Kooldino

iTrader: (1)

+1

ITEM9

iTrader: (3)

Well, I guess that's true, but you're missing the point. Even if the Al block takes up more space volumetrically, it will still weigh less. The displacement is the same, so it's the same size as far as anyone is concerned. So what if you get an engine compartment that's a bit more cramped? Who cares? The Al block can perform the same as iron power wise and help in handling of the car because of the weight loss. The Evo X might be heavier overall, but we know for sure we are at least 50 lbs. less up front. The handling dynamics of the car will be improved because of better weight distribution.

Not only that, the Al block will dissipate heat better by leaps and bounds. Iron isn't bad conductor of heat per say, but it isn't a good one either. Al shines in this department. The cooling system can be smaller because of this, saving weight even further. Coolant channels in the block can be smaller too. Hot spots in the cylinder will be less prominent as well because of this, increasing our limits on detonation avoidance. We can get more boost, timing, compression and run a bit leaner; your choice.

Iron sleeves are there not just for localized strength. Ferrous materials have better wear resistance than Al does. They also have a higher melting point. I believe that the thermal expansion of iron is also less than Al, keeping tighter tolerances. That's why we use them.

jetmn

That isn't true at all. A better designed block from Al could be stronger and lighter. Also, Rau isn't putting down close to 1500 hp, even at the crank.

03whitegsr

iTrader: (8)

If you guys are interested in how the motors are going to perform, you should be more interested in a lot of other things then block material. LOTS of aluminum blocks have made exceptional power. My friends B18 for example just made 870WHP on gas and the only thing done to it block wise was sleeves. It's not that big of a deal.

I am interested in the head more then anything. Direct drive valvetrain can be a great thing. But due to it being a flat tappet cam follower, the bucket size limits you on valve lift and ramp rate. THAT can be a huge determinate on how much power you an make. Port angle and how much material you have to work with around the ports can make or break the potential of a motor. How thick the deck area and bolt bosses are to resist deformation from high cylinder pressures is a biggy here too. There is also cooling efficiency, as a head that can transfer heat away from the chamber seems to be able to make more power by preventing hot spots in the chamber.

The block actually looks promising. Sure, it is an open deck block, but the sleeve support looks pretty good. A friend of mine just made 680 WHP on his '04 STI with the stock sleeves. Those things are VERY thin and while it is a semi-closed deck block, the support still isn't that great. Those stock sleeves look like they might handle a good bit of power before needing to be resleeved just looking at them in that video. But sleve material is almost more important then thickness or support. The open deck also means that the top of the bore runs cooler, which can improve detonation resistance.

The rods went over to a threaded rod/bolted cap setup which may end up solving the long time weak link of the factory bottom ends. Through all the generations of the 4G63, it seems like when pushing a well tuned motor, the only thing to really fear was stretched rod bolts. Compare the 6-bolt 4G63 rods to the EVO rods and you'll see the EVO rods are TINY yet they still perform very well. Light weight CAN be a very good thing and it seems like Mitsubishi knows what they are doing on this one.

Overall block design I like too. A two piece design but the caps remain separate from the lower block, this can work very well. It seems like a lot of motors that incorporate the caps as part of a lower block often have issues with bearing failure. On the flip side, almost every aluminum motor ends up needing a crank girdle to prevent the mains from coming out of alignment under heavy power. It looks like the EVO is going to come this way from the factory, not just with a cap girdle though, but a complete block girdle. Externally it looks like the block underwent heavy finite element analysis as well to shave out all the un-needed weight while making a stiff basis for the rotating assembly.

The oil pump is chain driven on its own chain, it looks like. Chains are also good at preventing slop in cam timing caused by stretch, but the MIVEC can accommodate for that to some degree anyway. A much better tensioner design to improve reliability of the cam drive system is used. A simple and effective variable valve timing system has been incorporated.

The next generation EVO motor looks to have a TON of potential and I think many of you are jumping the gun on saying it will not out perform the 4G63. I think for the average enthusiast, the new block is going to walk all over the 4G63. At the 1000+ HP area, let’s be honest, there are VERY few cars at that level and it really shouldn’t even be mentioned in this thread because it will affect so few of us. I would imagine if the EVO sells well though, DART will end up making some aluminum replacement that can handle anything anybody can throw at it.

chuntington101

great post 03whitegsr!!!

it would be really cool if dart could come out with a nice billiet block! also be nice to see if anyone like Darton will make some of their really cool sleves for it.

guess hwee just goping to have to wait and see!

Kooldino, carm down mate! i ment it WOULD BE NICE to see Ti rods in there.

Chris.

amstel78

And thank you for contributing to it's uselessness.

GPTourer

I'm not concerned with what people in the top .01% of 4G63 performance are doing with their cars. So talking about 1500whp 4G63's, if there are any, is lame to me. I would much rather have a car capable of 300-500whp with less of the peakiness associated with a 2.0L turbo then what we are used too now. All that is going to lie in the heads, and the EVO X will have a more sophisticated MIVEC system which will probably mean better effeciency, better drivability and just overall a better car - thats something to be excited about. If you absolutely must have a 1500hp car (or dream one up in your head), they'll be plenty of 4G63 iron blocks left to pull out of a junkyard or buy one new from Mitsu to build a drag bucket. IT may take a few years, but the pioneers with 4B11T will be chasing those records down.

I think its also stupid to talk about Evo reliability compared to standard Honda reliability. If Honda made an AWD turbo car then maybe we could talk, but their low torque FWD appliances aren't nearly as complicated. You Honda lovers can speculate all you want that they would make a better Evo, but its just an assumption and nothing more. Theres a good reason they build there cars this way so they don't have high warranty claims. I've sold both brands of cars and Mitsu's low power FWD cars are just as reliable - I believe this and there is evidence from both Conusmer Reports and JD Power's to back this up. Honda had problems with some of their V6 powered cars with their transmissions, and still are. I never saw any Galant V6's or Endeavors come in with chronic problems, or any special concessions have to be made for them, like was done for the Odyssey. Monteros were rock solid.

Because having a 30K car makes you a big baller. There are 30K Hyundais now. Your car's motor was used in old Hyundai Sonatas. Mitsu, Hyundai and Chrysler have been working together for longer then you've probably been alive and will most likely continue to do so. What are you going to do now?