Knock Question and between shift stutter
Jun 23, 2005, 11:53 PM
#1
Knock Question and between shift stutter
Well i just installed the Utec and it seems to be working. I scaled the injectors kind of and now i am richening it up to help the AFR to where it should be. This is the wierd thing:
The first pull i did after setting the global enrichment resulted in a 13:1 AFR in first and second gear (Farthest I went). The EGT's got pretty toasty but nothing too bad (840ish at the top). The wierd thing is it didn't knock at all. I refuse to believe the car would run that AFR without knocking. I made it better now which lowered the EGTs slightly but I still dont understand why it wasn;t reading any knock.... is it possible it really wasnt???
The other guess i have is the wideband I am using is on crack OR...
I have an exhaust leak directly before the wideband o2 sensor... could this leak be sucking in air making it READ leaner than the car truly is?
Last question is about a stutter problem between shifts. Every shift that I make has a decent flame/backfire. It also makes the car stutter for a split second before it starts to pulll again. Would this be because it is running too lean or rich or either one between shifts? Also, how could i help fix this... I think it will hurt my speed tremendously. Thanks guys for all the help!
The first pull i did after setting the global enrichment resulted in a 13:1 AFR in first and second gear (Farthest I went). The EGT's got pretty toasty but nothing too bad (840ish at the top). The wierd thing is it didn't knock at all. I refuse to believe the car would run that AFR without knocking. I made it better now which lowered the EGTs slightly but I still dont understand why it wasn;t reading any knock.... is it possible it really wasnt???
The other guess i have is the wideband I am using is on crack OR...
I have an exhaust leak directly before the wideband o2 sensor... could this leak be sucking in air making it READ leaner than the car truly is?
Last question is about a stutter problem between shifts. Every shift that I make has a decent flame/backfire. It also makes the car stutter for a split second before it starts to pulll again. Would this be because it is running too lean or rich or either one between shifts? Also, how could i help fix this... I think it will hurt my speed tremendously. Thanks guys for all the help!
Jun 24, 2005, 02:05 AM
#2
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sounds like someone messed around with launch control. They probably put it on ignition cut by the sounds of it. Exhaust leaks before the wideband sensor do throw off the readings. Seeing no knock can be attributed to many things. IF you are indeed runing 13 afr, the timing may be retarded.
Jun 24, 2005, 05:13 AM
#3
if you have the launch control configured, it could studder like that between shifts, I had that happen to me a few times, unfortunately the launch control isn't currently a "Two step" type setup where you get one RPM for launch, and a different RPM for flat shifting (or can be disabled)..
It is possible you ran that lean without getting knock, if you didn't log any event, then you likely didn't have any. The reason is depending on the boost and load of the engine, you may or may not get knock. Running fairly lean raises EGT's, but knock/detonation are a shockwave from an uncontrolled burn, if you have a good ignition system, cold plugs, and the car isn't very hot, the car in theory could run pretty lean without experiencing it. The reason you don't run very lean is to give you the headroom for unexpected events (Ignition drift, bad gas, sudden changes in air density, heat absorption, and a few other more technical things that come to mind)
You also may have to lower your knock threshold, your car may be like mine where the knock sensor isn't as sensitive as other cars for some reason which means that not every spurious knock event is picked up.
It is possible you ran that lean without getting knock, if you didn't log any event, then you likely didn't have any. The reason is depending on the boost and load of the engine, you may or may not get knock. Running fairly lean raises EGT's, but knock/detonation are a shockwave from an uncontrolled burn, if you have a good ignition system, cold plugs, and the car isn't very hot, the car in theory could run pretty lean without experiencing it. The reason you don't run very lean is to give you the headroom for unexpected events (Ignition drift, bad gas, sudden changes in air density, heat absorption, and a few other more technical things that come to mind)
You also may have to lower your knock threshold, your car may be like mine where the knock sensor isn't as sensitive as other cars for some reason which means that not every spurious knock event is picked up.
Jun 24, 2005, 05:23 AM
#4
Also where did you tap your EGT Probe? At full throttle I read almost 1300ish. Mine is tapped if your facing the car counting from left to right the #2 runner. I am with the heatshield on the car practically touching the heatshield on the edge, so maybe like 2 or 3 inches away from the block. Cruising and Idle I am around 800ish. Not from any tuning I know this because my tune is still stock on my utec till I put my o2 sensor in. All the wiring is set.
Jun 24, 2005, 08:07 AM
#5
Yes I turned on knock control but I am letting of the gas between shifts.. I dont see why it would still "stutter" between shifts... Ill try turning it off and see how it behaves.
The car was pretty warm but it was kind of a cooler night i guess and I didnt have any back to back runs. I also do have cold plugs in it so who knows. I just dont want to start screwing with the knock settings until I learn better what is true knock and what isnt. Maybe I will try to use some headphones and something and see if i can hear it and see if the Utec is reading it or not.
My EGT is tapped in the number one runner on Ron Shearer's header. It is a few inches away from the block and at cruising around 70mph it is around the 705-715 degrees celsius.
I guess i will just screw with it and see what i can do
The car was pretty warm but it was kind of a cooler night i guess and I didnt have any back to back runs. I also do have cold plugs in it so who knows. I just dont want to start screwing with the knock settings until I learn better what is true knock and what isnt. Maybe I will try to use some headphones and something and see if i can hear it and see if the Utec is reading it or not.
My EGT is tapped in the number one runner on Ron Shearer's header. It is a few inches away from the block and at cruising around 70mph it is around the 705-715 degrees celsius.
I guess i will just screw with it and see what i can do
Jun 24, 2005, 10:51 AM
#7
Yes, you were correct. The stutter was kinda delayed though which is why i was confused. I switched it to fuel cut stutter and it is MUCH better. Now it doesnt really stutter... just seems like it loses some power (Letting off the gas feels the same way).
I guess now I am interested in a few different things...
One is ignition cut vs. fuel cut stutter. It is obvious what the difference is but is cutting JUST the fuel and not the spark bad for the car?? I thought most people cut the ign and the fuel but this doesnt seem to have that option. With just the ign cut it is more precise and a much faster stutter but doesnt build as much boost and screws with my shifting badly. With it on fuel everything seems perfect but I am worried it may not be great for the motor.
The other question I am interested in is to you M Jack. You said your knock sensor did not seem as "alert" as others... what are your knock settings and how did you come up with them (Using what devices did you try to correlate the knock that the Utec sees vs what is real knock). Thanks man.. i owe ya :P
I guess now I am interested in a few different things...
One is ignition cut vs. fuel cut stutter. It is obvious what the difference is but is cutting JUST the fuel and not the spark bad for the car?? I thought most people cut the ign and the fuel but this doesnt seem to have that option. With just the ign cut it is more precise and a much faster stutter but doesnt build as much boost and screws with my shifting badly. With it on fuel everything seems perfect but I am worried it may not be great for the motor.
The other question I am interested in is to you M Jack. You said your knock sensor did not seem as "alert" as others... what are your knock settings and how did you come up with them (Using what devices did you try to correlate the knock that the Utec sees vs what is real knock). Thanks man.. i owe ya :P
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Jun 24, 2005, 11:42 AM
#8
I reduced the settings until I registered lots of noise, then increased it until I got a setting that was useful.. In all honesty its real close to the default, I just set the trigger (how many events constitute real knock) to be less.. I used my Det phones to listen for noise, then I adjusted my settings so the knock reading correlated to it.. The big problem is you may also pick up transient events that the sensor might pick up as knock.. Hard shifting where the drivetrain might clunk is one of those that would trigger the sensor.
I was always a little surprised that you couldn't use one, the other, or both for the limiter settings.. But there's a legit reason.. Ignition cut is safer if your using nitrous, fuel cut isn't as precise, but is least damaging to your catalytic converter...
I was always a little surprised that you couldn't use one, the other, or both for the limiter settings.. But there's a legit reason.. Ignition cut is safer if your using nitrous, fuel cut isn't as precise, but is least damaging to your catalytic converter...
Jun 25, 2005, 04:20 PM
#9
Well... as long as fuel cut isnt hurting the motor by shooting waste sparks out there I have no problem with it and it doesnt seem to screw with my shifting at all.... the spark cut made it hard as hell to shift it well.
I also learned the reason it screws with shifting mainly is because our clutch switch must be extremely high. I screwed with it and noticed it thinks the clutch is in even when it is only pushed in about 1/10th of an inch it seems. It should be MUCH closer to the floor so I think I will move the switch so it is closer to floor if at all possible. That should also help people launch it even harder and make it so the shift-no-lift would work perfectly fine.
They SHOULD also have a shift-no-lift option in there somewhere. That way you could set two different RPM's and/or turn one of them off. Oh well maybe they will later.
A few other small things I think they should incorporate are sensor inputs (Especially wideband without thier special little stuff). Anti-lag would a great feature (At least drag style.. thats all most people would ever want anyways). It would also be nice to see exactly what the ECU see's as far as knock.. that way i wouldnt ever have to change mine to see what it did when it was stock.
I am also currently making a GUI and everything to do two things for me that I will distribute to everyone in the next few weeks.. trust me you guys will love it! First thing it will do is be able to log two things at once (To start with, Zeitronix and the Utec because I own both). Then it will make real-time graphs of both together and use the Zeitronix for all the values it shares (More accurate). Then it will also have an editor for your maps (Gui) which will also have wieghted pulls, incremental gains/lowering, blah blah blah. I will also have it have checkboxes and little windows to set all your parameters. I will also include a few maps for people to use if they wish. It will also have a more detailed explanation of everything and some basic tuning ideas for our cars. Sooner or later I plan to make it capable of "auto-tuning" your car for you... at least for WOT. I will have a basic layout of AF/Rs and timing and everything and then have the user make a pull and have the program try to get all the parameters closer to what is the programs default settings (Or you own aim points if you want). It is still a while away from being done but when I get the first beta out you guys will love the ease of seeing graphing and changning maps much easier than the text way before. Some of you will also love the fact that it will graph outside sources as well so all you guys with widebands from another company will work and see them both on one graphing program. The program will be coded in C as well so dont worry about it being slower than crap like those in Java nowadays.
If anyone has any things they want me to try to implement for my first beta let me know. Any more complicated requests will come later once people start using it Im sure. Ill keep you guys updated on my progress!
I also learned the reason it screws with shifting mainly is because our clutch switch must be extremely high. I screwed with it and noticed it thinks the clutch is in even when it is only pushed in about 1/10th of an inch it seems. It should be MUCH closer to the floor so I think I will move the switch so it is closer to floor if at all possible. That should also help people launch it even harder and make it so the shift-no-lift would work perfectly fine.
They SHOULD also have a shift-no-lift option in there somewhere. That way you could set two different RPM's and/or turn one of them off. Oh well maybe they will later.
A few other small things I think they should incorporate are sensor inputs (Especially wideband without thier special little stuff). Anti-lag would a great feature (At least drag style.. thats all most people would ever want anyways). It would also be nice to see exactly what the ECU see's as far as knock.. that way i wouldnt ever have to change mine to see what it did when it was stock.
I am also currently making a GUI and everything to do two things for me that I will distribute to everyone in the next few weeks.. trust me you guys will love it! First thing it will do is be able to log two things at once (To start with, Zeitronix and the Utec because I own both). Then it will make real-time graphs of both together and use the Zeitronix for all the values it shares (More accurate). Then it will also have an editor for your maps (Gui) which will also have wieghted pulls, incremental gains/lowering, blah blah blah. I will also have it have checkboxes and little windows to set all your parameters. I will also include a few maps for people to use if they wish. It will also have a more detailed explanation of everything and some basic tuning ideas for our cars. Sooner or later I plan to make it capable of "auto-tuning" your car for you... at least for WOT. I will have a basic layout of AF/Rs and timing and everything and then have the user make a pull and have the program try to get all the parameters closer to what is the programs default settings (Or you own aim points if you want). It is still a while away from being done but when I get the first beta out you guys will love the ease of seeing graphing and changning maps much easier than the text way before. Some of you will also love the fact that it will graph outside sources as well so all you guys with widebands from another company will work and see them both on one graphing program. The program will be coded in C as well so dont worry about it being slower than crap like those in Java nowadays.
If anyone has any things they want me to try to implement for my first beta let me know. Any more complicated requests will come later once people start using it Im sure. Ill keep you guys updated on my progress!
Jun 25, 2005, 08:42 PM
#10
Sounds interesting.. I know awhile back I made a "Digital Dashboard" utility, check out the download section of my website www.aktivematrix.com if you want to see how I did it, it was a quick hack of a few days of work, but its cool.. And there's a mapping/logging utility out on the forum called UCC (UTEC Control Center) check them out before you spend too much time reinventing the wheel. What your looking to do is actually along the lines of what I ultimately wanted to do..
BUT, I also know of another member mentioning to me that there's a UTEC for the WRX that does exactly that.. http://mpsav.com/MPSUTECLogger/MPS_U...r_Download.htm it currently ony works for the WRX, but check out whats available and potentially going to be, before you spend too much time on it.
The automapping/tuning thing was something I've wanted to do for awhile.. since you can base ECU tuning to auto-fill your maps, and target AFR to autofill your fueling.. but like I said, UCC can do some of these things your describing already.
BUT, I also know of another member mentioning to me that there's a UTEC for the WRX that does exactly that.. http://mpsav.com/MPSUTECLogger/MPS_U...r_Download.htm it currently ony works for the WRX, but check out whats available and potentially going to be, before you spend too much time on it.
The automapping/tuning thing was something I've wanted to do for awhile.. since you can base ECU tuning to auto-fill your maps, and target AFR to autofill your fueling.. but like I said, UCC can do some of these things your describing already.
Jun 26, 2005, 04:35 PM
#11
I got the UCC thing but it is in Java so I despise it anyways. Looks decent though and i would go with the same type of idea. Just change it so it can control the user variables as well and a few other options mentioned. I havent seen the otherone though. I might ask for some input from ya once I get it going.
Jun 26, 2005, 09:30 PM
#13
It is just all done half assed and I dont like to wait for other people to put in things I want for one. I dont really like the set-up of all the options but I do like the graphing system he implemented which is what mine will closely look like I am sure. Ill get it started hopefully soon and maybe I can get some input from you on what it should have or what i should change, etc...
Jun 26, 2005, 09:31 PM
#14
Dont bother replying to this thread if you dont want... it is easier to stay on one like my log thread.. that way neither of us need to read a bunch of different threads to stay in touch. I really appreciate all the time you give me. If you ever need anything I can help ya out with Ill hook ya up
I really appreciate all the time you give me. If you ever need anything I can help ya out with Ill hook ya up
Jun 27, 2005, 10:40 AM
#15
If you want, just try to catch me on AIM since we both seem to have similar "Special needs" for our data collection (I'd like to correlate data to my OBD-II scanner from www.scantool.net) and have real-time graphing, dashboard/gauges, and HP calculation (using the OBD-II scanner for speed will allow easy determination of gear your in for the calculations plus I like to always know my fuel trims, AIT, and other data that isn't typically logged in the "Shift-1" utec logs)