I just put in a set of 272s camshafts. I had to add about 2% of fuel globally to maintain a proper AFR that I used to have.

With 91 octane fuel, I could only run up to 16 deg of ignition timing at 19psi (taper from 21 to 19 psi at 7000 rpm) and 10.8 AFR. Does it seem a little low for timing? For those of you who runs 91 octane gas, how much timing could you run by redline at what AFR and boost?

Thanks!

 

it would be easier if you could post a log.. With the lower octane gas, timing numbers would be a few degrees lower than better gas, so I cant say for sure thats really low, but it won't be the typical 19-23 degrees of timing that most guys with 93 octane would be seeing.

Its nice to see your not trying to push your boost levels on 91 octane though..

 

Here is one of my log I had this morning. The boost is not reaching 21 psi for some reason (kind of cold this morning). I don't have a Tuner, but the AFR is close to where I want them to be... ~11.3 up to 5400RPM and drops to 10.8 by 5750 and up. Feels like the torque start to fall off quickly as soon as it reached its peak at 4250 RPM... It will be greatly appriciate if someone can take a look at it for me with DLL.


DATA1

, , , ,Load,Knock, , , Mod, Mod, , Mod, WB
RPM, MAP, MAF,TPS,Site,Count, Ign#1, Inj#1, Ign, Fuel,Boost, MAF, AFR
, psia, Hz, % , , , deg , duty , deg, % ,(CL) , Hz,
1968,-11.2, 37, 0, 00, 00, +16.0, 3.6,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 35, 00.00
1947,-11.0, 51, 9, 00, 00, +27.3, 11.4,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 116, 00.00
1934, -9.4, 261, 36, 00, 00, +29.0, 8.3,ECU. , +4.6,ECU. , 253, 00.00
1959, -6.6, 213,100, 10, 00, +17.9, 9.7,ECU. , +4.6,ECU. , 268, 00.00
2181, -3.7, 248,100, 10, 00, +18.0, 11.2,ECU. , +4.3,ECU. , 238, 00.00
2187, -1.0, 259,100, 10, 00, +17.1, 11.2,ECU. , +4.3,ECU. , 259, 00.00
2163, +0.6, 273,100, 10, 00, +16.0, 12.2,ECU. , +4.3,ECU. , 304, 00.00
2217, +1.1, 289,100, 10, 00, +15.3, 12.7,ECU. , +0.4,ECU. , 299, 00.00
2290, +1.8, 313,100, 10, 00, +14.5, 13.7,ECU. , +3.2,ECU. , 318, 00.00
2382, +2.2, 333,100, 10, 00, +13.9, 14.5,ECU. , +1.6,ECU. , 363, 00.00
2513, +2.9, 356,100, 10, 00, +15.0, 15.1,ECU. , +0.1,ECU. , 319, 00.00
2552, +3.4, 388,100, 10, 00, +14.3, 16.4,ECU. , +0.4,ECU. , 351, 00.00
2639, +4.0, 404,100, 10, 00, +13.3, 18.2,ECU. , +0.7,ECU. , 481, 00.00
2716, +4.7, 444,100, 10, 00, +10.1, 20.6,ECU. , +2.1,470.00, 437, 00.00
2873, +5.6, 494,100, 10, 00, +9.1, 23.2,ECU. , +1.5,470.00, 606, 00.00
2923, +6.5, 528,100, 10, 00, +7.7, 24.9,ECU. , +2.1,470.00, 464, 00.00
3027, +7.7, 639,100, 10, 00, +5.9, 28.7,ECU. , +2.2,450.00, 520, 00.00
3141, +8.8, 678,100, 10, 00, +6.0, 32.7,ECU. , +2.2,450.00, 572, 00.00
3343,+10.6, 818,100, 10, 00, +4.9, 38.4,ECU. , +2.1,435.00, 883, 00.00
3411,+12.7, 927,100, 20, 00, +4.3, 41.2, +7.3, -1.7,435.00, 980, 00.00
3639,+14.5,1012,100, 30, 00, +4.4, 43.0, +7.5, +1.6,455.00, 980, 00.00
3728,+16.5,1082,100, 40, 00, +4.2, 52.6, +7.1, +0.4,455.00,1269, 00.00
3894,+17.7,1063,100, 50, 00, +5.1, 53.9, +6.5, +0.0,455.00,1059, 00.00
4115,+18.8,1131,100, 50, 00, +5.5, 57.3, +6.5, -0.9,457.50,1101, 00.00
4290,+19.7,1187,100, 60, 00, +4.4, 57.8, +6.5, -2.6,460.00,1168, 00.00
4462,+20.1,1165,100, 60, 00, +4.5, 58.3, +6.6, -2.6,460.00,1322, 00.00
4642,+20.1,1278,100, 60, 00, +4.6, 63.0, +6.8, -2.8,462.50,1322, 00.00
4694,+19.9,1312,100, 70, 00, +6.0, 63.5, +7.1, -3.6,465.00,1302, 00.00
4859,+19.7,1366,100, 70, 00, +6.1, 66.9, +7.3, -3.9,465.00,1275, 00.00
5042,+19.5,1457,100, 80, 00, +6.1, 69.9, +7.4, -4.1,465.00,1533, 00.00
5265,+19.7,1474,100, 80, 00, +6.4, 70.1, +7.4, -1.0,465.00,1404, 00.00
5341,+20.4,1479,100, 90, 00, +5.7, 73.3, +6.8, -2.8,465.00,1497, 00.00
5564,+20.6,1510,100, 90, 00, +5.6, 74.2, +6.7, -1.9,465.00,1497, 00.00
5640,+20.1,1577,100, 90, 00, +6.7, 79.5, +7.3, -0.3,465.00,1552, 00.00
5777,+19.9,1572,100,100, 00, +9.0, 79.3, +7.3, +0.8,460.00,1644, 00.00
5984,+19.5,1623,100,100, 00, +9.8, 81.7, +7.9, +1.7,460.00,1562, 00.00
6127,+19.0,1597,100,100, 00, +11.0, 82.6, +8.6, +1.8,460.00,1592, 00.00
6253,+19.2,1633,100,100, 00, +12.2, 84.8, +9.3, +3.0,460.00,1666, 00.00
6385,+19.7,1666,100,100, 00, +12.4, 85.8,+10.1, +2.5,460.00,1773, 00.00
6435,+18.8,1689,100,100, 00, +13.2, 88.6,+10.6, +3.7,460.00,1712, 00.00
6548,+18.8,1718,100,100, 00, +14.3, 88.8,+11.3, +3.5,460.00,1798, 00.00
6680,+18.6,1748,100,100, 00, +14.3, 91.5,+12.2, +3.8,460.00,1736, 00.00
6816,+18.6,1742,100,100, 00, +15.4, 91.2,+13.2, +3.8,460.00,1893, 00.00
6915,+19.5,1700,100,100, 00, +16.4, 89.8,+14.9, +4.7,460.00,1879, 00.00
7047,+18.6,1700,100,100, 00, +15.1, 89.9,+16.0, +3.9,460.00,1736, 00.00
7199,+17.9,1700,100,100, 00, +15.1, 90.4,+16.0, +4.6,460.00,1798, 00.00
6988,+14.5, 119, 10, 00, 00, +36.8, 8.7,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 61, 00.00
6422, +7.0, 163, 10, 00, 00, +38.4, 10.1,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 183, 00.00
6006, -0.1, 97, 0, 00, 00, +38.3, 7.4,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 80, 00.00

 

Well, Its hard to say, but the ECU wants to run around 15/16 degrees of timing, so I'm assuming it is where the high-det map wants to be.. You can try to get another degree or so of timing, but probably not much more since I do see the timing in the stock column hit 16.4 then drop to 15.1 which means its sensing something thats not appearing on the UTEC's knock column.. With the amount of fuel your giving the engine, you really should consider at least a pump upgrade if you haven't done it yet. I see the input MAF hits 1742 then immediately drops to 1700 for three samples in a row, that doesn't normally happen, what other mods are on the car? on an interesting sidenote, your closed loop boost numbers in your boost solenoid column were the same as mine.. hehe..

 

Okay, here's a graphical representation of your log data.. Plus a HP/TQ graph overlayed onto it, take the HP numbers with a grain of salt, I made assumptions about weight, driveline loss, no SAE temp correction, and wheel diameter (basically all stock numbers)

But it should offer you some insight into whats going on.. It looks like in some areas, the ECU wants to run a bit more timing, and others its not quite as much, so it appears you can get a bit more timing out of it. The MAF reading (input) is pretty stable except for that "Clipping" at the end of the run where you had 1700 repeat 3 times) Your boost curve for closed loop can use a little work to smooth it out a bit, which will help things (especially the torque/hp dip you see around that point) Your at 91% in some areas on your injectors, given how rich you need to run the car for the 91octane gas, your close to needing to upgrade your injectors.

 

Thanks for your advice, I will work on some of those area later today.

Yeah, I've noticed that the injector duty is quite high, I guess I will upgrade with 680 or 720cc before I go on with other mods.

Here is a list of my power mods:
3" Turbo-Back with Hi-Flo Cat
Apexi Open Element Filter w/ stock pipe
Greddy Type-S BOV (Recirculated)
Perrin Boost Tube (Upper intercooler pipe)
Walbro 255 Fuel pump
BR8ES plugs (500 miles of age)
Buddy Club 272s with Fidanza gears at -3/-3 timing
UTEC

I am not sure what could cause the MAF to drop at 1700MHz... I am thinking that I might have some minor boost leak some where at high load. What do you think? Try to tighten the BOV a bit more?

What about the close loop boost? Did you mean the area between 5000-6500RPM? Any suggestion?

I will try to run -4/-1 timing too, since the idle was way too rough and becomes a cop magnet

 

I'll have to think about your options a little bit.. If you can get the boost levels a bit more stable (maybe adjust the closed loop boost gain so its a bit more responsive) you will pick up the torque where the boost dips..

The clipping, well, honestly the only time I've seen that is when using electronic means of preventing fuel/boost cut (Fuel Cut Defensor) it may just be anomolous and coincidental so the future runs just keep an eye open for it.

Reducing your cam overlap with the other timing will boost your midrange torque a bit and should keep your HP powerband around the same, though the power might fall off a bit sooner, but you can gain some of that back by fiddling with the midrange timing after your peak boost where the ECU appears to want to run a little more timing than your actually running on the UTEC, but don't alter the timing maps until you can see if you can get your boost curve to look a bit more smooth so your not working against yourself.

If you can look at your EGT's, since your cam overlap, timing, and AFR's will have an impact on the temps (Driving them higher) which can be a bigger headache than running a little lean..

 

Oh man, that means your still on stock injectors? I've had to add fuel all over the board. Try adding about 10 to the entire map. I really doubt your afr is in check. Usually i see stock injector duty cycles at around mid 90s-high 90's if you tune for a 11.3-11.5 afr near redline. So i guess this tells me you're running pretty lean. No where in my map did it have negative values.

 

Considering his boost is around 19psi over 5500rpm, I am not surprised to see it pretty rich at 90% duty.. I have no idea what he's using for a wideband, but early on he indicated he knew his AFR's so I didn't question it.

When My boost was around 19psi, I'd be around 10.5afr at 90% duty, so Its certainly likely he's ok, but if he doesnt actually have a wideband at this point I'd hold off doing anything else..

 

I am using Innovate LM1 and it was just calibrated right before I started tuning for the camshafts. So I think I am safe on that department.

Mmmm... I've already changed the timing gear to -4/-1 and the car idles so much better. I will see how it goes and I might consider change it back if I lose too much bottom end. I did a couple more 3rd gear WOT runs but I had some noise at above 6000 rpm according to my logs, so I will retard a bit more timing up top and try to advance some in the midrange to make up for the lost torque below 4500 RPM. But overall, I feel a little lost in torque under 4500RPM, and I gain some top end power (when there is no knock events). I don't have an EGT gauge, so I do worry about damaging my engine from the extreme heat it may create. So you suggest me to stay with -3/-3? Does it mean -4/-2 will create less heat than -4/-1?

I changed my boost gain from 50 (from the in my previous post) to 48 (the log below), the boost seems to ramp up a little faster, but it is still not very stable. Should I crank up the boost gain until I see some spike? Will it help stabalize my boost and making it more repeatable? My boost vary about 1psi form run to run.

Here is one of the logs I had after changing -4/-1 after some quick tweak to fuel map:

DATA1

, , , ,Load,Knock, , , Mod, Mod, , Mod, WB
RPM, MAP, MAF,TPS,Site,Count, Ign#1, Inj#1, Ign, Fuel,Boost, MAF, AFR
, psia, Hz, % , , , deg , duty , deg, % ,(CL) , Hz,
2142,-10.3, 50, 7, 00, 00, +31.2, 2.7,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 73, 00.00
2108,-10.3, 115, 15, 00, 00, +33.4, 5.8,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 123, 00.00
2101, -9.4, 121, 15, 00, 00, +32.3, 5.7,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 120, 00.00
2171, -7.8, 192, 20, 00, 00, +30.1, 7.7,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 266, 00.00
2181, -5.0, 257, 71, 10, 00, +15.9, 11.7,ECU. , +4.3,ECU. , 291, 00.00
2211, -2.6, 271,100, 10, 00, +16.0, 11.7,ECU. , +0.9,ECU. , 285, 00.00
2258, -0.7, 284,100, 10, 00, +14.9, 12.9,ECU. , +4.5,ECU. , 323, 00.00
2384, +0.9, 303,100, 10, 00, +13.9, 13.2,ECU. , +2.1,ECU. , 308, 00.00
2465, +1.8, 325,100, 10, 00, +13.8, 13.9,ECU. , +1.7,ECU. , 387, 00.00
2495, +2.2, 346,100, 10, 00, +13.9, 14.4,ECU. , +0.6,ECU. , 322, 00.00
2564, +2.9, 369,100, 10, 00, +14.3, 15.8,ECU. , +0.8,ECU. , 330, 00.00
2649, +3.6, 401,100, 10, 00, +13.2, 17.6,ECU. , +0.9,ECU. , 434, 00.00
2732, +4.3, 424,100, 10, 00, +12.3, 19.1,ECU. , +1.7,470.00, 387, 00.00
2858, +4.9, 477,100, 10, 00, +10.1, 21.1,ECU. , +1.3,470.00, 563, 00.00
2893, +5.8, 488,100, 10, 00, +8.0, 23.0,ECU. , +1.6,470.00, 459, 00.00
2994, +6.5, 548,100, 10, 00, +7.3, 25.7,ECU. , +1.8,450.00, 541, 00.00
3103, +7.7, 677,100, 10, 00, +6.2, 28.8,ECU. , +1.7,450.00, 883, 00.00
3274, +8.8, 736,100, 10, 00, +5.3, 32.2,ECU. , +1.4,435.00, 712, 00.00
3387,+10.4, 813,100, 10, 00, +4.2, 35.6,ECU. , +1.6,435.00, 710, 00.00
3508,+12.4, 902,100, 20, 00, +4.3, 38.3, +7.4, -3.3,435.00, 892, 00.00
3671,+14.0,1008,100, 30, 00, +4.3, 51.1, +7.5, +0.4,455.00,1131, 00.00
3770,+16.3,1061,100, 40, 00, +3.3, 53.9, +7.2, -0.5,455.00,1315, 00.00
3903,+17.9,1121,100, 50, 00, +4.4, 53.3, +6.7, -1.3,455.00,1250, 00.00
4074,+19.0,1210,100, 50, 00, +4.0, 55.4, +6.9, -1.1,460.00,1213, 00.00
4240,+19.9,1228,100, 60, 00, +4.3, 55.5, +6.8, -2.9,462.00,1141, 00.00
4391,+20.1,1216,100, 60, 00, +4.3, 56.3, +6.8, -2.9,462.00,1168, 00.00
4655,+21.1,1275,100, 60, 00, +4.5, 61.5, +6.9, -3.0,463.00,1428, 00.00
4803,+21.1,1302,100, 70, 00, +6.7, 62.9, +6.7, -4.2,465.00,1308, 00.00
4894,+21.7,1400,100, 70, 10, +3.8, 66.1, -1.2, -4.7,465.00,1428, 00.00
5035,+21.5,1428,100, 80, 00, +4.4, 65.8, -1.4, -4.0,465.00,1373, 00.00
5159,+21.3,1488,100, 90, 00, +3.8, 68.2, -1.6, -3.6,465.00,1366, 00.00
5282,+21.7,1445,100, 90, 00, +3.7, 68.5, +6.8, -4.6,465.00,1453, 00.00
5376,+21.1,1479,100, 90, 00, +3.7, 71.3, +6.8, -3.0,465.00,1436, 00.00
5592,+20.8,1543,100, 90, 00, +3.6, 73.3, +6.8, -2.5,465.00,1515, 00.00
5621,+19.9,1567,100,100, 00, +3.6, 76.4, +7.5, -1.1,465.00,1524, 00.00
5767,+19.0,1572,100,100, 00, +6.0, 76.7, +8.6, +0.5,465.00,1644, 00.00
5995,+18.8,1612,100,100, 00, +6.6, 79.2, +9.1, +1.6,475.00,1677, 00.00
6127,+18.1,1644,100,100, 00, +7.0, 82.6, +9.6, +1.6,475.00,1700, 00.00
6265,+18.1,1677,100,100, 00, +8.3, 82.9,+10.2, +2.2,480.00,1785, 00.00
6397,+18.6,1724,100,100, 00, +8.4, 86.0,+11.0, +1.5,480.00,1773, 00.00
6410,+18.6,1779,100,100, 01, +8.1, 87.3,+11.5, +3.9,485.00,1798, 00.00
6653,+19.5,1824,100,100, 00, +8.9, 91.0,+12.1, +2.8,485.00,1908, 00.00
6666,+20.8,1824,100,100, 00, +9.4, 89.6,+12.8, +3.7,487.50,1879, 00.00
6761,+20.8,1805,100,100, 05, +7.3, 92.7, +9.5, +4.1,487.50,1893, 00.00
6872,+21.1,1798,100,100, 00, +8.4, 91.9,+10.9, +3.7,490.00,1865, 00.00
6747,+20.4, 385, 21, 00, 00, +29.4, 19.7,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 129, 00.00
6301,+12.0, 101, 10, 00, 00, +37.9, 7.9,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 168, 00.00

 

off topic: you're just goin on readin the lm-1? i purchased the stand-alone gauge with the thoughts of other stuff, now i'm considering the utec (possibly). There anyway to import the a/f to your charts, or is it just all by watching?

 

You can't really tune and watch the AFR at the same time. Things happan way too fast for you to tune that way. Anotehr reason is that you need to know which load zone you were in when tuning. The UTEC log will let you know that... I don't think you can log AFR into UTEC's logging unless you use Tuner or Tuner Pro. What I do is to log with my LM-1 seperately and diagnoise the UTEC logs and LM-1 logs when I got home.

 

my question, is how do you match them?

and how do you log both, at the same time?

 

That's what I'm doing and boy is it a pain. Sure wish I had a Tuner. I just can't justify 2 widebands and I don't want to sell the LM-1 because I love the gauge. Maybe if a good deal on a used one comes along.

 

Someone made a tool to integrate the lm-1 with the utec, but it was only made for wrxs and sti. Since the logs closely match the evo utec, i'll see if it works. If it does work, tuning will be a breeze with the lm-1.