Just starting to tune my car & have some questions.
Sep 26, 2005, 11:20 AM
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Just starting to tune my car & have some questions.
First off please only respond if you have first hand knowledge. I'm not interested in hearing what your friends brother runs or what you heard so and so do. I'm only looking for factual tuning advise.
My car is an 04, only mods are a 3" TB exhaust w/cat delete, MBC & K&N panel filter; for tuning I'm using an SAFCII. To keep an eye on the engine I'm using a pocket logger to watch my timing and I have an Inovative LM1 WB sensor for A/F and an LMA-2 that I have hooked up to RPM, TPS, IAT & knock. I still have two open inputs left on the LMA-2 that I can use. What else would you suggest I monitor?
I've tried to log timing on the LMA-2 using the "ignition" wire on the ECU but I think the voltage is to low cause it hardly went above .001v the whole time so I scratched that idea... it would have been nice to get rid of the pocket logger though.
What is an acceptable level of knock to see on a motor @ WOT? From the best I can tell my sensor seems to read around .05v - .06v at idle; .5v-.6v during normal driving & its gotten as high as 1.0v @ WOT while trying to tune. From watching the timing on the pocket logger I didn't see a decrease anywhere in the upper RPM band so I guess that 1.0v wasn't enough knock to pull timing, does that sound right?
What A/F should I be shooting for on pump gas and what is an acceptable level of boost to run? Same questions for race gas... also how long will my WB o2 sensor last with leaded race gas?
Is there anyway to get rid of that dip in timing in the middle of the RPM band (without getting a flash)?
I have a ton more questions but I'll save them for later.
My car is an 04, only mods are a 3" TB exhaust w/cat delete, MBC & K&N panel filter; for tuning I'm using an SAFCII. To keep an eye on the engine I'm using a pocket logger to watch my timing and I have an Inovative LM1 WB sensor for A/F and an LMA-2 that I have hooked up to RPM, TPS, IAT & knock. I still have two open inputs left on the LMA-2 that I can use. What else would you suggest I monitor?
I've tried to log timing on the LMA-2 using the "ignition" wire on the ECU but I think the voltage is to low cause it hardly went above .001v the whole time so I scratched that idea... it would have been nice to get rid of the pocket logger though.
What is an acceptable level of knock to see on a motor @ WOT? From the best I can tell my sensor seems to read around .05v - .06v at idle; .5v-.6v during normal driving & its gotten as high as 1.0v @ WOT while trying to tune. From watching the timing on the pocket logger I didn't see a decrease anywhere in the upper RPM band so I guess that 1.0v wasn't enough knock to pull timing, does that sound right?
What A/F should I be shooting for on pump gas and what is an acceptable level of boost to run? Same questions for race gas... also how long will my WB o2 sensor last with leaded race gas?
Is there anyway to get rid of that dip in timing in the middle of the RPM band (without getting a flash)?
I have a ton more questions but I'll save them for later.
Sep 26, 2005, 12:07 PM
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1. A/F to shoot for should be 11:1. That's a good safe pump gas level. Keep your boost around 20-21psi.
2. Race gas your A/F's could be up to 11.5 or so with 24 psi of boost. That is still keeping things nice and safe.
3. To adjust your timing you need a flash, or management of some kind. If you make large changes with the AFC your timing will be adjusted indirectly. As you lean out the AFC you will increase the timing. If you go too far this timing will create a little knock and you will end up with the timing being pulled.
4. Good luck interpreting the knock sensors data. As you can see it's hard to know "where" the level is too high. My advice is to keep watching the knock and the timing, if you tune aggressive, at some point you will create some knock, and the timing will be pulled. When that happens you can go back and look at the knock readings during the time you saw timing being retarded.
2. Race gas your A/F's could be up to 11.5 or so with 24 psi of boost. That is still keeping things nice and safe.
3. To adjust your timing you need a flash, or management of some kind. If you make large changes with the AFC your timing will be adjusted indirectly. As you lean out the AFC you will increase the timing. If you go too far this timing will create a little knock and you will end up with the timing being pulled.
4. Good luck interpreting the knock sensors data. As you can see it's hard to know "where" the level is too high. My advice is to keep watching the knock and the timing, if you tune aggressive, at some point you will create some knock, and the timing will be pulled. When that happens you can go back and look at the knock readings during the time you saw timing being retarded.
Sep 26, 2005, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jid2
1. A/F to shoot for should be 11:1. That's a good safe pump gas level. Keep your boost around 20-21psi.
2. Race gas your A/F's could be up to 11.5 or so with 24 psi of boost. That is still keeping things nice and safe.
3. To adjust your timing you need a flash, or management of some kind. If you make large changes with the AFC your timing will be adjusted indirectly. As you lean out the AFC you will increase the timing. If you go too far this timing will create a little knock and you will end up with the timing being pulled.
4. Good luck interpreting the knock sensors data. As you can see it's hard to know "where" the level is too high. My advice is to keep watching the knock and the timing, if you tune aggressive, at some point you will create some knock, and the timing will be pulled. When that happens you can go back and look at the knock readings during the time you saw timing being retarded.
2. Race gas your A/F's could be up to 11.5 or so with 24 psi of boost. That is still keeping things nice and safe.
3. To adjust your timing you need a flash, or management of some kind. If you make large changes with the AFC your timing will be adjusted indirectly. As you lean out the AFC you will increase the timing. If you go too far this timing will create a little knock and you will end up with the timing being pulled.
4. Good luck interpreting the knock sensors data. As you can see it's hard to know "where" the level is too high. My advice is to keep watching the knock and the timing, if you tune aggressive, at some point you will create some knock, and the timing will be pulled. When that happens you can go back and look at the knock readings during the time you saw timing being retarded.
Sep 26, 2005, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jid2
1. A/F to shoot for should be 11:1. That's a good safe pump gas level. Keep your boost around 20-21psi.
2. Race gas your A/F's could be up to 11.5 or so with 24 psi of boost. That is still keeping things nice and safe.
2. Race gas your A/F's could be up to 11.5 or so with 24 psi of boost. That is still keeping things nice and safe.
Anyway with my settings at zero on the SAFC I was getting A/F in the 9.3:1 - 10.2:1 in 3rd and 4th gear. After a couple of runs I got those gears up to 10.4:1 - 10.9:1 between 5000 & 6600 RPM, this is all on pump gas. I was looking at a lot of data and trying to analyize it and I'm taking these from memory so I don't know how exact they are. If I knew how to convert the LM1 log files to a jpeg or gif image I could post them here but I don't
Originally Posted by jid2
3. To adjust your timing you need a flash, or management of some kind. If you make large changes with the AFC your timing will be adjusted indirectly. As you lean out the AFC you will increase the timing. If you go too far this timing will create a little knock and you will end up with the timing being pulled.
4. Good luck interpreting the knock sensors data. As you can see it's hard to know "where" the level is too high. My advice is to keep watching the knock and the timing, if you tune aggressive, at some point you will create some knock, and the timing will be pulled. When that happens you can go back and look at the knock readings during the time you saw timing being retarded.
4. Good luck interpreting the knock sensors data. As you can see it's hard to know "where" the level is too high. My advice is to keep watching the knock and the timing, if you tune aggressive, at some point you will create some knock, and the timing will be pulled. When that happens you can go back and look at the knock readings during the time you saw timing being retarded.
I don't "think" I'm getting knock but like you said until I see it I won't know for sure. The only range I've seen the knock sensor operate in so far is from .05v at idle through .5v- .6v during normal driving. While I was tuning it was almost 1.0v at like 7000 rpm in 3rd gear but timing kept climbing.
At the moment the only timing I have being pulled is in the middle of the RPM band from like 4800-5500. I wish there was a way to stop it other then wasting money on a flash.
Anyone have any other suggestions about logging parameters?
Sep 27, 2005, 10:17 AM
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has anyone tried to tap the MDP sensor? will that sensor provide you with an accurate reading of manifold pressure / volts? I guess kind of like a MAP sensor. When I was reading the wiring diagram for the EVO I saw that sensor and I figured it was too easy and someone would have done it already by now... just checking.
Sep 28, 2005, 10:28 AM
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Im at school so I don't know if anyone has told you this yet but to get more timing out of the EVO you put larger injectors in.
Because the injectors are larger it takes less MAF Hz to put of the same amount of fuel. Because the stock ECU thinks that you are running a lot less power (because it thinks you are running less fuel and obviously less air) it will up your timing and help you get rid of that mid-range dip, and basically give more timing all around....
Boltz.
Because the injectors are larger it takes less MAF Hz to put of the same amount of fuel. Because the stock ECU thinks that you are running a lot less power (because it thinks you are running less fuel and obviously less air) it will up your timing and help you get rid of that mid-range dip, and basically give more timing all around....
Boltz.
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Sep 28, 2005, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Boltz.
Im at school so I don't know if anyone has told you this yet but to get more timing out of the EVO you put larger injectors in.
Because the injectors are larger it takes less MAF Hz to put of the same amount of fuel. Because the stock ECU thinks that you are running a lot less power (because it thinks you are running less fuel and obviously less air) it will up your timing and help you get rid of that mid-range dip, and basically give more timing all around....
Boltz.
Because the injectors are larger it takes less MAF Hz to put of the same amount of fuel. Because the stock ECU thinks that you are running a lot less power (because it thinks you are running less fuel and obviously less air) it will up your timing and help you get rid of that mid-range dip, and basically give more timing all around....
Boltz.
Sep 28, 2005, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ez
Good stuff...and don't forget EGT. It's the only way to know just how close to the edge of trouble you are inside the cylinders. But of course at the suggested levels things should be pretty safe...
Could you explain how EGT meter will show if you are in trouble or not?
Sep 28, 2005, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Jokeri
OFF TOPIC
Could you explain how EGT meter will show if you are in trouble or not?
Could you explain how EGT meter will show if you are in trouble or not?
Sep 28, 2005, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ez
Simple. If the EGT rises to over 900*C (1652*F), then you are in likely in trouble.
How accurately it can tell then if you are in danger or not?
Sep 28, 2005, 03:21 PM
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im planing to do my own tunning also i have defo EGT planing to get the XD-1 02 wideband gauge i have the RMR gauge pot witch stays right in front of them rpm i dont have anything to log it with can i like think of video taping the pulls taping a/f and rpm ??? i dont think it would be such a bad idea because if the gauge is really accurate i think i could tell where to do the tunning with the safc??? what do you guys think??
anyone please help first time doing this dont want to mess up
anyone please help first time doing this dont want to mess up
Sep 28, 2005, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jokeri
What if your timing is a bit late, your EGT rises but there is no real danger.
How accurately it can tell then if you are in danger or not?
How accurately it can tell then if you are in danger or not?
Your timing would probably be "late" for a reason...let's say there is pre-ignition (detonation). If the EGT consequently rose to levels of concern, then it was an indirect indication of danger...although the knocking and retard would have been a better clue.
Another thought. In the case that you might blame late timing as causing hotter exhaust burn, you still don't know how much of that heat has remained building in the cylinders. So then you cannot say there is no real danger with any certainty. Keeping that in mind, holding your EGT below the melting point of aluminum pistons is a good idea.
Sep 28, 2005, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BoOsTinGEVO190
im planing to do my own tunning also i have defo EGT planing to get the XD-1 02 wideband gauge i have the RMR gauge pot witch stays right in front of them rpm i dont have anything to log it with can i like think of video taping the pulls taping a/f and rpm ??? i dont think it would be such a bad idea because if the gauge is really accurate i think i could tell where to do the tunning with the safc??? what do you guys think??
anyone please help first time doing this dont want to mess up
anyone please help first time doing this dont want to mess up
$279 + $65 for EGT probe. $279 is suggested retail, you can get it lower if you shop around.
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm
http://www.zeitronix.com/order/order.htm
Also, you can add the boost sensor and display if desired. I enjoy being able to log EGT, O2, RPM, Boost, Throttle Position, and a 0-5v input of my choice simultaneously with one little box.
Sep 29, 2005, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ez
EGT is one of several tools that you rely on. No single tool alone will accurately tell you all you need to know.
Your timing would probably be "late" for a reason...let's say there is pre-ignition (detonation). If the EGT consequently rose to levels of concern, then it was an indirect indication of danger...although the knocking and retard would have been a better clue.
Another thought. In the case that you might blame late timing as causing hotter exhaust burn, you still don't know how much of that heat has remained building in the cylinders. So then you cannot say there is no real danger with any certainty. Keeping that in mind, holding your EGT below the melting point of aluminum pistons is a good idea.
Your timing would probably be "late" for a reason...let's say there is pre-ignition (detonation). If the EGT consequently rose to levels of concern, then it was an indirect indication of danger...although the knocking and retard would have been a better clue.
Another thought. In the case that you might blame late timing as causing hotter exhaust burn, you still don't know how much of that heat has remained building in the cylinders. So then you cannot say there is no real danger with any certainty. Keeping that in mind, holding your EGT below the melting point of aluminum pistons is a good idea.
If you had pre-ignition, how fast would the EGT-meter react to that if the sensor is mounted after turbo? in the same time when the detonation has killed your engine?