laakness

iTrader: (12)

Well put as well as Malibu's comments.

I did have a chuckle at the timing table comments

scorke

iTrader: (18)

Spoold you what you said was just stupid. Guess what if everybody was running around with a ams gt35R and 2.3l tune, they would probably be ecstatic because everybody just bought 4300 dollar turbo kits and 2000 dollar stroker kits from them.

If somebody stole your girlfriend......thats just a horrible analogy. Whats the moral there, don't email your girlfriend to other people?????? Sorry but thats just a horrrrrible example man, reword that..... There is a difference between stealing and sharing btw. I didn't steal my tune, I paid for it, it's also the individuals right to share the tune or not, if tuners were really worried about people sharing there tunes they would do like ecutek and protect/passoword protect the ecu's, but they don't and won't.

The information that can be taken out of analyzing somebodies tune is in no way the information that runs there buisness. Anybody can read up on tuning forced induction 4g's either through shiv's thread or whichever tuner/ecuflash guru on here believes, and come out with damn close if not the same exact results any tuner shop is, people go to the shops because they do not trust/do not have the expertise to do it themselves, and that my friend will keep them in buisness no matter what.



Scorke

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Although offtopic, I got your point after I thought about it.. I remember the "Fake books" back in the day...

SterlingEvo

iTrader: (5)

I wouldn't use someone else's exact parameters anyway. I'd certainly look at other people's tunes to see what they've done, though, and maybe use that knowledge to improve my tune. I mean that's what the tuners did in the first place to learn what they know! Just "downloading" someone else's tune onto your car (even if the mods are similar) is like using someone else's glasses to correct your failing vision. It's never going to be perfectly right...

ez76

iTrader: (5)

I've seen this issue of proof come up in traditional software.

A tuner who wanted to defend his copyright could find empty space somewhere in an unused or otherwise flexible ECU map (for example, the cells in the high det fuel map associated with large MAF values at 500rpm) and modify them with a unique string of unlikely hexadecimal values - these could become a trademark of sorts in case there was any question.

DCSilvrEvo

iTrader: (5)

The tuner owns the tune. You just paid for his services.

Just like Beyonce owns "Dangerously In Love," but you pay $0.99 to listen to it or use her music off iTunes

ez76

iTrader: (5)

In no way shape or form did I create this thread to entice people to share tunes.

I recently read an interesting speech (by Courtney Love, of all people) on the topic of music as "works for hire" and it intrigued me, since most of us enter into tuning arrangements pretty informally.

For me the article raised the question of what a tuner might be able legally to force a customer to do, in defense of their intellectual property. For example, could they revoke your "license" to the tune at any time, limit your ability to resell your car with the tune, etc.? Intuitively these seem ridiculous but I am not a lawyer.

DCSilvrEvo

iTrader: (5)

Would be nice if the tuners could put a code system on there so anytime you want to pull data off the ecu you have to have a key!

blonde

iTrader: (12)

guys, i find this discussion to be very interesting and i would like to see it remain open. please keep discussion to the issue at hand and don't use this thread to take cheap shots at tuners.

scorke- you are walking on a very thin ice right now and i suggest that you refrain from posting such comments...

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I know, I was just being a responsible Guru for pointing out that EvoM made the decision not to allow tuner maps to be posted.

Its actually something I had run into personally.. At the time I was working for a company outsourced to IBM, and was working on my Utec Digital Dashboard at the time, (Ever notice I stopped working on it??) Anyway, the outsource agreement stated anything I developed while under their employ, becomes their property, and it was considered a "Work for Hire" even though I was not writing it for them, and it was on my own time.. I fought their contract and won, but it wasn't an easy fight.

I have sympathy for software developers and tuners who put so much effort into their work, although I do believe in 100% open source, and 100% sharing, I also believe in professional courtesy and respecting the wishes of the developer. Until one of the tuners specifically says, go ahead, share your map so all can see (which I think any good tuner would have no problem with this, since their work should speak for itself, and in reality, anyone unwilling to go to get tuned, or pay for a tune, would likely never been a customer anyway, hence no loss)

This is a great debate since I find my feelings straddle points on both sides of the argument and it forces me to think hard about how I would handle this personally.

My PERSONAL opinion is if I tuned someones car, and they wanted to share it, I would have no problem with it.. If Someone USED the tune and blew up their motor, well then, to hell with them for being irresponsible enough to use the tune without change.. Everyone has something to offer, and everyone can learn something by sharing.. The community as a whole needs to understand this and take inventory of their strengths and weaknesses, and participate in a productive manner.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I find that to infringe on the personal rights of an individual, its almost as offensive to me as locking down the ECU so you can't alter it in the future unless you pay their ransom... Heck on one type of flashed ECU, you can't even flash it back to stock without having your original tuner remove it.. Thats just plain wrong... I can respect their desire to protect their efforts, but its inappropriate for them to force you to go back to them just to remove it. (assuming there has not yet been a way found)

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Theres a clear difference in "Work for Hire" and "Work For Distribution"

A product tailored specifically to an individual is a work for hire, and unless otherwise contractually documented, would become the property of the individual..

A product intended for distribution (its virtually the same for EVERYONE) would be a work for distribution, and generally that would fall under the traditional copyright, trademark, etc...

The music industry is a REALLY bad example.. Music written by an artists is a "Work for Hire" to the Record Label, which in turn releases it as a "Work for Distribution" only the contracts maintain specific points related to copyright, intellectual and property rights, durations and exceptions.. (Look at "The Artist formerly known as Prince" for quite a few years)

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

This really is a fantastic topic.. I'd like to see some actual tuner input on the subject, but like you said, it has to be as "Sterile" as possible so the thread can be kept useful..

Spooldyou

iTrader: (52)

Look, im saying in every right YES you the Customer that had payed for the tune have the right to enjoy it. I DO NOT feel that you have the right to distribute it to other members, its not your work.

scorke

iTrader: (18)

Did I have the thumb down emoticon in my post, I don't remember putting it there.

I see what you are saying, however like the way pirated music has gone in the past I forsee this to be impossible to stop especially with the technology and information that is available at this point.

(Hypothetically)

What if two people have stock 9's that put down the EXACT same baseline logs/numbers from the same area, and one says to the other, hey I'll split the cost of an ecuflash for you and share the tune with you after I get it tuned. Knowing that the tune will not be perfect, but also knowing that the will most likely be pretty damn good and taking into account the cost of other tuning/piggyback/ems options map sharing I see as being unstoppable.

Also at what point of modifying a map that you did pay for does it become your own? I agree with you that the work a tuner does to my ecu is indeed "his work" however what if I begin to tweak it myself for the better? Is there going to be a quota for the number of cells that need to be modified to consider a map our own? I certainly know if I paid for a tune then found out that it was lacking/off in a couple areas if I modified it myself, I would have no qualms about sharing it.

Just trying to play devils advocate a bit, as I feel this topic is going to be hot for a while, blonde I tried to make sure I didn't say anything over the line, although I am still waiting for a reply re: my earlier post I think I kept this one ok.....lmk if I didn't!

Scorke

Scorke