Spooldyou

iTrader: (52)

I understand you wanna Shake it up alittle, but i think your on a touchy subject to begin with Esp with ECUFlash on the market now. i have no problem lending my personal map to a friend for a baseline. However, right when ECU flash came out, i bought a basemap from AL, and he got me going on my current Map. Shortly After ____________ ( no names ) asked me for a copy of the tune. Did i give it no, would i have. Nope. Thats info that I payed for. Why would i give it to someone else and break AL's trust? Granted he would probably never find out. I understand thats how AL Feeds his Kids (i dont think he has any BUT).

You refer to the music industry, when most musicans want that kind of exposure, Yet they complain about losing 1/10 thier profit from one of there multi-million dollar homes.

my 2 cents

Inn-Tune

iTrader: (33)

That feature already exists on many pieces of tuning hardware. I've only seen having a code as an option rather than it being required all the time. Personally I've never used that feature.

There are pieces of hardware which require mappings to be coded to the hardware unit. That kills two birds with one stone by cutting down on stolen/bootleg hardware sales as well as map sharing, but it allows anyone to view and edit the information if they have physical access to the hardware so it doesn't hinder the customer from backing up the info, viewing, or editing it.


I ask my customers to think of their mapping as intellectual property we've licensed to them for their own personal use. The tune is theirs to use and modify as they see fit. If they sell the car, they transfer that license to the new owner. We simply ask that customers do not distribute or divulge the licensed information to others.

Obviously there is no formal enforcement of this and the whole idea of licensing the mapping is informal. It's a matter of ethics and respect as others have mentioned. We don't have RIAA watchdogs hunting for people downloading calibration files.


The main danger of giving out tuning information is often forgotten. A custom mapping is made for one vehicle under one set of conditions. No two vehicles are the same and if we're custom tuning a vehicle we've tailored it beyond the margin of error we use when creating a base map suitable for use on similar vehicles. The custom tune is designed to be optimised and safe on that one vehicle alone and may cause serious damage if used on a another vehicle, even if it is equipped with the same make and model parts. Something as small as a vacuum leak can make a tune dangerous on two otherwise "identical" vehicles.

Happy boosting!

-Mike

scorke

iTrader: (18)

^10-4 I hear ya, what I was talking about was people working together to get tune's performed and shared, not one person just sharing it with a bunch of random guys. With regards to the music industry I agree, however once they are big enough they don't need any more exposure, all they see is missing $/profit. Also, I still truely believe that even if everybody that had an ecuflash were to share there map with 10 other evo owners every shop that tunes/works on evos would still be in buisness with no real loss, except for those that specifically deal with only the reflashing of evo ecu's(Al).

Also, I will lose 0 sleep over Al losing money. If he can afford to have his evo, he isn't short on cash by any means, and the way he has been conducting himself recently I think/hope will take him away from the community.

Again playing devils advocate, how would sharing the map be breaking Al's trust? Did Al say, I trust you not to share this map, or, would you please not share this map?
-just curious


To innovative tuning- I completely agree/understand your argument with regards to the whole point of tuning being that it is tailored to your own vehicle, I personally would never use a tune from somebody elses car on mine, but I think lots of people out there feel comfortable doing it. The one gripe I have with this is the fact that there have been tooners doing through the mail flashes for some time, with pretty good success, and if they are able to get the tune pretty good without ever seeing the car, I do not see why two cars with similar or identical mods/lack of mods would not be just as close as a tune, if not closer than a through the mail tune vs. a copied custom tune from a different car.


Scorke

Inn-Tune

iTrader: (33)

If you re-read my post you'll find that I specifically differentiated between a base map and a custom tune made for one vechile under one set of conditions. As I mentioned, once we tune beyond the margin of error required for a map to work on multiple vehicles, the map is not safe for use on other cars, no matter how similar they seem. I'm not saying that if someone shared a basic stage x through the mail tune that it would blow cars up. Those maps are much better than a stock mapping when made properly, but they have a lot of margin of error built into them to allow for compatibility without hands on tuning.

That said, the issue in this thread is not whether sharing tunes will blow cars up or not. Sharing a through the mail tune is no different from sharing a custom tune when it comes to the ethical ramifications.

-Mike

Warrtalon

iTrader: (6)

FWIW, Dynoflash includes a legal disclaimer and copyright when sending out his flashes (e-flashes and mail-in flashes) now just for this purpose. I haven't seen what he does on the custom tunes yet, but it's probably a printed copy of the same verbage.

AlwaysinBoost

iTrader: (17)

regardless of what this forum attemps to enforce there are dozens of people out there sharing maps. Both base maps and so called custom tuned maps. The key word to remember here though is 'sharing'. Nobody is getting charged for them, its a free exchange of information to use as a reference tool.

CO_VR4

iTrader: (83)

Sharing custom maps has some risk that you'll be not just on the edge of a HP tune, but over the edge due to the differences in characteristics between the "new" motor and the motor for which the map was made. Kind of like duplicating a haircut -- might not look so good on the second guy as on the first.

As long as the person who created the map is available, he is probably the best person to modify it, at least in terms of how long it will take, since he's already familiar with it. The dilemma comes when you can't get a timely reply from the original tuner, or he's no longer in business. Then I think most would feel justified and comfortable getting additional assistance from some other capable person.

ez76

iTrader: (5)

More like taking somebody else's prescription medication.

toledodsmr

id say the tuners owns the tune

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I strongly disagree.. After doing significant research on the subject, a custom tune clearly falls under a "Work for hire" where the tune is owned by the person who hired the Tuner. The only exception would be if you were asked to sign a contract stating the tuner retained the right to his tune. Unfortunately it would also be unenforcable, see next group of info..

A through the mail flash (Where there are MANY IDENTICAL COPIES OF THE MAP) the map "Numbers" are potentially something one can copyright. HOWEVER The rom (either E-mailed or written to the ECU and shipped back to you) is now a DERIVATIVE WORK, and therefore cannot be owned by the tuner, nor copyrighted because he does not own the work it was derived from. Therefore unenforceable..

Although Its not smart to distribute a custom tune, and its incredibly disrespectful to the tuner you paid good money to. The money the tuner makes IS NOT IN THE MAP ITSELF, its for his EXPERTISE AND EXPERIENCE, and that is what makes the map have value.. If you want the job done right, have the right person do the job.

This applies to ANY ECU ROM. Even Circumventing a measure to prevent you from accessing your own property is not Illegal (again its a derivative work) but if a tuner were to do the same to avoid paying a license fee by circumventing a licensing counter, the TUNER would be the one violating the law.

So be aware of what it is you guys are doing.. Especially tuners, you need to be aware of your rights, but understand that the customer is the one with the rights to his own property.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Oh and another point, though I have not seen anything specific, I have read over my user manual, sales paperwork, and warranty paperwork for my Evo, and you are clearly the OWNER OF A PRODUCT.. There is no license agreement for the software used in the ECU, therefore you own the ECU **AND** The software on your ECU, which means you are entitled to the right to modify it however you like, in turn you own the rights to it. (It does not mean you are legally entitled to distribute it though)

laakness

iTrader: (12)

Amen

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Additionally.. The tools a Tuner will use to modify your ECU, and its licenses and limitations are the responsibility of tuner and **HIS** agreement with the software company. Its **HIS** tool, **HE** licenses it, if you are handed an enduser agreement from the tuner, for the software product, you should closely read the agreement, the rom itself is a derivative work, and the license embedded and the lock on there is to prevent the tuner from violating his license agreement by circumventing their license counter. But there is nothing wrong with you reading your ECU and saving a backup of it.

laakness

iTrader: (12)

I strongly agree with MalibuJack on this topic. In my job I travel to sites and setup their wireless networks and devices which they paid my company to do. We have a strict and standard set of settings that they need to adhere to for the system to work optimally.

Now what the customer paid for was our expertise and experience in troubleshooting and installations of this nature. We document those settings for the customer and they can plainly see them....because we don't own the settings we put on the devices they purchased.

We cannot stop them from paying us to setup a couple devices and then go off on their own and buy 500 more and use the settings they originally paid us for. It may not be morally right but not everyone is. We got our money for what they contracted us to do, so legally they are in the clear from my standpoint.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Laakness, in your case, you gave them the settings documented..That document with those specific settings can CLEARLY be seperate and you can copyright that.. If the tuner were to give you a printout of all the tables he modified, THAT can be copyrighted, and he can retain his rights to those values, although it has limited value and would be difficult to defend in court.