MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

There is a solution to this problem for tuners.. I can write an application that can patch a rom with changes.. the patch and program can be run against the users rom, the resulting rom can be written to his ECU.. the tuner can then retain his rights to the patch. Now, the enduser can send the tuner his rom, the tuner can do his magic, he can return the users ORIGINAL UNMODIFIED ROM, and a PATCH that the enduser can apply.. the patch can be in an unreadable form, and keyed to the users rom and immobilizer code..

IF YOUR INTERESTED, TUNERS CONTACT ME.. I already have something I have been working on for another purpose that does this.

krafty

iTrader: (17)

Now, I didn't read thru the whole thread so I might have missed someone else mentioning this.. If ppl are posting stock maps, then in fact they are postings mitsu property, correct?

laakness

iTrader: (12)

No, as MalibuJack stated, when you purchase the car you are the owner of everything, including the ECU and the software on it. There is no license or software agreement in the Mitsu docs regarding the ECU software.

krafty

iTrader: (17)

Further more.. flashing the ECU, or making changes could be considered reverse enginneering mitsu code. So whats the difference?

krafty

iTrader: (17)

I bought a DVD, its mine and I can't reverse engineer it. Copy it, share it and change it to my liking. If were talking about I.P. the same rules apply, correct?

krafty

iTrader: (17)

Also when I had my car tuned by TT twice, there was no agreement of copyright, or ownership, or any type of license agreement. Not that I woud share my flash code with anyone.. just making a point.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Actually it had been determined that you are indeed within your rights to make a backup copy of your DVD's.. This has been through the court system in several countries, and the root of the entire argument was that the DeCSS tool had no legitimate value, and therefore was originally banned. However this has since been overturned..

The DVD argument differs in the sense that the DVD may be your property, but the contents are only licensed for your own private and personal use. Originally it was somehow limited to viewing, but your rights as the licensee also makes a provision of protecting your investment, which includes creating an archival copy of the contents.

This can also be applied to the ROM on your ECU if you really want to interpret that you own the ECU but not its contents.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Reverse engineering is clearly different than altering maps, if you are figuring out what these maps do, then you are reverse engineering however.. Disassembling the code could fall under the copyright of the ECUs rom... However if this was a arguable and defendable point, then the vendors selling reflashing tools, software, hardware, and tuners writing the tunes using that hardware would then be breaking the law. Since I have yet to hear about Mitsubishi taking action against these companies getting paid for the reverse engineering efforts, they have chosen not to persue their rights that that they are entitled to, or they chose not to protect that software by not creating an end-user agreement protecting those rights.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

What it comes down to is this..

1) Respect your tuner, and the software he uses by not distributing your rom.

2) Protect YOURSELF from damages by not distributing your own map, even if its tuned by a tuner, its YOUR property and if someone blows up their car, they can attempt to collect damages FROM YOU as the owner of the map. (It is highly unlikely they could win, but there is no precident setting court case at the moment that I'm aware of)

3) Distributing a map from a locked ECU, that has a license key embedded on it, WILL violate the agreement you have for your right to allow a tuner to use the Tool to alter it, because by distributing it, you would be circumventing their licensing. HOWEVER making an archival backup, and using a tool to do it is CLEARLY WITHIN YOUR RIGHTS.

I hope this last flurry of posts clears up a few things.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

FWIW I have actively argued and sucessfully defended my own rights in the past, I am not a lawyer, but I do understand license agreements, and the rights and exclusions that they offer. I'm not just a car guy, and I'm not just a tuner, I don't do this professionally and I don't get paid to do this. I have nothing to gain or lose. I do have a very strong belief that endusers are freqently abused by these agreements because of their ignorance. In this case, there is no clear license, no clear delineation of who's property is who's, and therefore no possible way to argue or collect damages.

Now, if the tuners, and software vendors who provide the tools clearly have the cooperation of mitsubishi, and have purchased the licenses required to author and modify their software, then I would have to reassess the validity of my defense.

Gusl

iTrader: (41)

The tuners work hard at getting the maps down and than testing them to make sure they work as promised.
We pay them good money for these maps. The tuners sell the maps over & over gain. I dont think they are losing any money if we the customer pay for the maps and than do what we want with them later.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I happen to agree with you.. Only the section you quoted was the EvoM policy, not my opinion.. But respecting a tuner's wishes, and doing it for fear of legal recourse are two different things.. A tuner asking to respect his wishes and not distribute a map, will definitely motivate most people to not distribute them.. But threatening legal action is not the right way to go about it.. Not to mention it would never really get anywhere in court anyway.

32 psi daily

I think the most important part of all this is that the tune is done over the copyrighted and intellectual property of Mitsubishi.

Which goes back to how legal it is to modify the stock ecu and who is responsible for the damages when it incurs.

an example would be a software.

If someone went into hack it and created a different program out of the original program, usually they would have an agreement that they have to agree to before they use it. The agreement is usually a liability waver agreement.

and it's illegal for the hacker to hack into a propriety software in the first place. But distribution for mass use is something else altogether.

robb86

iTrader: (6)

Agreed.
This was an excellent thread to sit and read throught.

Atlmethevo

The tune is yours, just like the rest of the car. If you buy a house and someone put in hardwood floors they are yours just like the rest of the house and you can sell them if you want. I have no problems giving out maps and have e-mailed over 100 people maps, but if they blow up the car that's not my problem. If the tuner is so worried about people selling there maps spend the money and make it encrypted but most are to cheep to do it so it must not be too big of a deal to them.