slatermvp

iTrader: (13)

can't wait for pics and vids. Been waiting for an NA 4g94 for a while. If you get it dynoed that would be even better.

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

I really don't see 180-200 WHP NA being possible if the baseline for the motor is around 90 WHP. Low displacement NA motors simply don't make big power, especially one that wasn't designed that way from the factory, a characteristic of the 4G94. You would need ridiculously aggressive cams, high compression pistons, lots of porting, custom designed exhaust manifold and I suspect you'd still top out in the 140-150 WHP range. It really doesn't seem like there's hard data to support any of the speculation here, just wishful thinking. Adding ITBs won't add big power anyways, it's more about throttle response than anything else. My own experience is floating around here somewhere and it wasn't pretty. I had all of the bolt-ons, all from reputable sources, and even went further with 10:1 pistons and I dynoed barely above stock. I find it hard to believe that there's nearly 100 extra HP to be made from a handful of mods.

slatermvp

iTrader: (13)

amby he is not doing ITBS and he is doing all this NA modifications along with the DOHC swap which should respond better to the modifications.

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

Better being the key phrase. We're still talking about effectively doubling the stock horsepower with NA mods. I really don't see it being that likely. I wouldn't be too surprised if he got to low-boost turbo power levels but getting to 180-200 WHP on a 2.0 L all motor engine seems a stretch.

I mentioned ITBs because someone else in this thread had suggested them. For power, they're a waste of time and not worth the tuning hassle.

slatermvp

iTrader: (13)

yeah I mentioned it, due to the fact that because he is doing all this mods to the car the ITBs will only aid it. Like you said it will help the throttle response and since he does outcrossing it would only be beneficial to have. Plus, you can't go wrong with the soundtrack they make.

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

They're also a ***** to tune and expensive. They do sound pretty wicked though and if you don't care about classing, make the car more fun to drive.

Midnightkid

My ultimate goal is shooting for the 180-200whp range. Thats with an aggressive (or aggressiver) cams installed, an aggressive tune, and anything else I can think of that can improve efficiency (aftermarket crankshaft if I can find one, etc). All of these are what I consider to be my Stage 2 mods. Stage 1 was meant for modifications to the block, installing the head, getting the car running again, and a tune to make sure I'm not getting 5 miles to the gallon. Stage 2 is where the meat and potatoes for my build is at (although I'm second guessing going that far considering how much it cost to even get to stage 1).

As for my current set-up. I also maxed out on every bolt on possible. My build/tuning philosophy is focusing on efficiency. Minimizing interruptions in air flow, maximizing intake input, and optimizing throttle response. Granted there is no such thing as 100% efficiency, it's worked out pretty good so far.

I had the head port-matched to the intake and exhaust manifold and the block bored out to match the oversized pistons. Trev-Tec (which is a very well-known shop in Las Vegas and had multiple builds covered in DSport, Import Tuner, and Super-Street) has creative control over the work & install. Luis at LLC has also been advising me the whole way and given my current setup before the swap, 150-180 is reasonable. My build mirror's Luis' previous builds and he Dyno'd in the 150 range (with less bolt on mods, but with aftermarket cams and a tune).

As for individual throttle bodies, I think its more of a novelty idea than a practical one at this point. At this point, I would really need really well designed ITBs to minimize turbulence from affecting acceleration. But it would be cool as hell though lol.

But like I've said in the past, this build is mostly for Autocross/road-racing. Coming out of corners, I had excellent throttle response, but not a lot of acceleration to show for it. If I can even get a fraction of more acceleration (on top of upgrades to brakes that I'm going to have done), I can definitely perform at a higher class than I have in the past.

With that said, If you didn't know, I'm still deployed to Afghanistan. I can't go into specifics, but I'll be home very soon (it may still be a while in your perspective, but right around the corner for me) =)

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

What are you basing these "reasonable" claims on? The evidence just isn't there, it's pure, wishful speculation at best. I've been through it all before. Back when I did my build, people were sure I'd be way up in HP, including a notable vendor on here who sold me most of the parts. I had intake, ported TB, ported IM, header, exhaust and 10:1 pistons. If I'm remembering my numbers correctly, I gained 5 HP over stock. 5. That's what relying on speculation, hearsay and hype gets you.

What did Luis baseline at? Do you have any links to his build and dyno?

What class are you planning on competing in? Based on your mods, you're going to be way up there in class which might be fun for a while but I'd be worried about actual competitiveness.

Midnightkid

My point of reference is squarely based on 4G93 builds that I researched on various forums in New Zealand, Australia, etc. I have just as much evidence for these dynos as we did for evidence for WMDs in Iraq... LOL. As for Luis' builds at LLT, his builds are on his facebook and all you have to do is look up LLT Racing. I can't link the information I found from the forums because I'm on the Military Internet and those forums are blocked (along with anything remotely related to fun or international sites). Luis told me his dyno times in a way older e-mail, I'll need a bit to skim for it so I can post it.

I compete in the Street Modified class and competed in that class before the swap. I'll still be able to compete in that class since the rules state that any swapped engines must be of the same Make. I faired pretty well in the past and gotten faster times than modified 240's, 300ZXs, various hondas, etc. All of which were either DOHC and/or turbo'd. But yeah, I'm staying in the same class, I just said I'd perform at a higher one lol. My car's still my daily driver and going any higher would require me to throw in a roll cage and strip my interior.... yeah, not so much.

In any case, I'm gonna have my car Dyno-tuned and I'll definitely post the Dynosheet when the time comes. At the very least, I'll post up my 1/4 mile time slips since that's I how I based post-mod installation performance in the past.

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

I would be skeptical if this was me. You have a vendor telling you that they have made X power with Y mods, and then selling you Y mods. This is exactly what happened in my situation. The vendor in question repeatedly said that the gains would be X%, and they weren't. Based on what this vendor was saying, I should have dynoed well over 100 WHP, I dynoed at 87 WHP. Scamming people in the car community is very easy, they generally want to believe what you're telling them. Everyone loves the idea of big power gains for relatively little money and turning their mundane vehicle into a fire-breathing monster. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way in real life. 180-200 WHP would mean 230-250 HP at the crank depending on the dyno. That's basically double the stock number. That's hard to do with a turbo setup, let alone when you're not actively forcing air into the system. Known performance vehicles like the S2000 don't have gains like that.

Street Modified class for autocross or road racing?

Unless you have a baseline, dynos are pointless. On here we've seen dynoes for lightly modified Lancers range from the 8X WHP range to over 100 WHP. This has led some people to assume that the mods on the 100 WHP cars netted 10 or more WHP when logically they didn't (you're not going to gain that kind of power with a SRI and catback exhaust, lol). If you can get someone with a 4G94 Lancer to go with as a reference point though, that would be very helpful for everyone.

Midnightkid

Surprisingly enough, while Luis at LLT did suggest parts and helped guide the route I took, I didn't buy anything else from him aside from the head and supporting gaskets. I do take everything with a grain of salt and know that advertised HP is a load of horse crap, especially with our 4G94 engines. The problem with my research was that none of the research I came up with were our Generation of Lancer with 4G94 engines. Everything I found was based on 2-door hatch Mirages, and 4 Door old school Lancers with 4G93s.

But yeah, I was never a big believer of big gains for little money. You know as well as I do the true cost of trying to build an All Motor 4G94. Had I known when I began that I would've spent this much, I would've gone Turbo honestly. But I was already hlafway there, no point turning back at this point. What kind of Dyno did you get your car Dyno'd at? I know a lot of them are very subjective and some spew out a load of garbage.

Also, Street Modified class for Autocross. I do Autocross with the LVSCCA. You can find the guidelines regarding class on the SCCA's website. The Road Racing I've managed to do so far were open track days with no Classing, but timed events.

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

I can't remember the type of dyno used as it's been a good 5 years or so since I had the car. There was another 4G94 Lancer present that was dynoed on the same day with just an intake so by comparing the two we determined that my mods netted me a whole 5 HP over his setup. That was all exhaust mods, all intake mods and motor work.

Midnightkid

There's a lot of variables that effect dynos, mismatched tire sizes will even give different readings between the same car. But guarenteed you would've blown it out of the water in a side by side race. The thing I noticed about Lancers/4G94 is that from a stop, their acceleration is crap. But at a roll (say 30 mph), they're a helluva lot more reactive. At a stand still, I was absolutely blown away by a Turbo'd (non-intercooled) OZ Rally. From a roll at around 50 MPH, I was right on his tail and the most he could pull was a car length. We're gonna have a rematch when I get back though now that I did the headswap and he's tuned and intercooled lol

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

I'm pretty sure we had identical tire sizes. Anyways, the two dyno curves looked virtually identical, save for a higher peak on mine. My car wasn't fast in an objective sense so no I wouldn't have blow him out of the water. There are a lot of subjective factors that can make a car seem fast even if it's not.

Midnightkid

Well if the dyno curves were nearly identical, than that is definitely disheartening from my point of view. While I won't question the quality or hardwork put into the mods, there are anomilies in our motors, any engine for that matter, that affect potential regardless of the mods you may have put in. You could have the most free flowing intake and throttle body; but if you were still running the stock MAF, that is a huge choke point in air flow. A ported intake manifold will see increased performance, but not as much if the inlet on the head is the stock size. In my data logs, I noticed an increase in air flow which aided throttle response by something as minor as lifting my air intake a few inches.

With that said, there's no doubt in my mind though that you'd pull ahead a substantial amount given your set up. While the term "blowing out of the water" is subjective as well, if that Lancer was only running an intake and nothing else, the built in restrictions alone would be enough to yield to the aftermarket modifications. It may not be a super fast race, but the results would be as clear as day. This is based on behind the wheel experience rather than speculation of course.