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Feb 27, 2004, 10:24 AM
#166
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Originally posted by .L.
QUOTE Know obviously turbos can be very powerful if done right. the only downside we've seen is that our motors do not take well to average-high boost without some internal work (on turbos). most dont have the money or the time, too much of a hassle, or do not see the point. i think most would agree that it's unpractical to tear apart basically a brand new car, just to prepare it for moderate boost. like most people have bluntly said, "you shoulda' just bought an evo". i think most are TRYING to save a buck or two. so that way they have a fun, reliable car to drive around in, without the high cost. most people/professionals would agree that supercharging is a great way to accomplish this. vortech has had much success with its integra/civic/s2000 kits. they produce great power, with great reliability. dosent matter 4cyl or not. maybe in the past. a major points is ..... what type of kit can produce good horsepower while still being reliable. thats basically what it all comes down to. QUOTE
i think that the reason is money, and what i posted above.
QUOTE Know obviously turbos can be very powerful if done right. the only downside we've seen is that our motors do not take well to average-high boost without some internal work (on turbos). most dont have the money or the time, too much of a hassle, or do not see the point. i think most would agree that it's unpractical to tear apart basically a brand new car, just to prepare it for moderate boost. like most people have bluntly said, "you shoulda' just bought an evo". i think most are TRYING to save a buck or two. so that way they have a fun, reliable car to drive around in, without the high cost. most people/professionals would agree that supercharging is a great way to accomplish this. vortech has had much success with its integra/civic/s2000 kits. they produce great power, with great reliability. dosent matter 4cyl or not. maybe in the past. a major points is ..... what type of kit can produce good horsepower while still being reliable. thats basically what it all comes down to. QUOTE
i think that the reason is money, and what i posted above.
Feb 27, 2004, 11:16 AM
#167
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Yes supers are reliable, yes they can make good power. I don't dispute any of that.
For the most part boost is boost... what matters is what temp it ends up being at when created, and at what rpms it is generated. So don't think because you have a super you can suddenly run a bunch more psi than a turboed car. If this Ripp super was NOT shaft driven I'd be more in favor of it. However it is a SDS, which is STILL in some ways a turbo. The only major difference is one is shaft driven and the other turbine driven. Then on top of that the shaft driven one is rpm fixed so it can not boost anything but linearly. So if it makes 10 psi at 5K it'll make significantly less at lower rpms versus a turbo system will make 10 psi from 2.5K all the way to 6K. Also because it is still using a turbo like compressor it does not have the efficiency benefit that a twin screw super has over turbos. ALSO, because of the way they have the SDS configured you still have a blow off valve and other issues in place that are typically considered to be "detriments" of a turbo. They are also making their horsepower numbers through the use of ANOTHER system, which is methanol or water injection. Which can also be applied on a turbo system.
So the fact is that yes superchargers are great technology and can make good power. They are also more fixed, you won't be able to get the SDS to make 300 whp. plain and simple. and you CAN do it with a turbo system (go talk to HobieKopek.. and me with my MP3 for that matter).
So while Ripp is providing numbers and promises that are catching eyes they aren't providing anything that is by any means far superior for our cars.
And for the record I also am not a fan of the RRM turbo... but anyway
For the most part boost is boost... what matters is what temp it ends up being at when created, and at what rpms it is generated. So don't think because you have a super you can suddenly run a bunch more psi than a turboed car. If this Ripp super was NOT shaft driven I'd be more in favor of it. However it is a SDS, which is STILL in some ways a turbo. The only major difference is one is shaft driven and the other turbine driven. Then on top of that the shaft driven one is rpm fixed so it can not boost anything but linearly. So if it makes 10 psi at 5K it'll make significantly less at lower rpms versus a turbo system will make 10 psi from 2.5K all the way to 6K. Also because it is still using a turbo like compressor it does not have the efficiency benefit that a twin screw super has over turbos. ALSO, because of the way they have the SDS configured you still have a blow off valve and other issues in place that are typically considered to be "detriments" of a turbo. They are also making their horsepower numbers through the use of ANOTHER system, which is methanol or water injection. Which can also be applied on a turbo system.
So the fact is that yes superchargers are great technology and can make good power. They are also more fixed, you won't be able to get the SDS to make 300 whp. plain and simple. and you CAN do it with a turbo system (go talk to HobieKopek.. and me with my MP3 for that matter).
So while Ripp is providing numbers and promises that are catching eyes they aren't providing anything that is by any means far superior for our cars.
And for the record I also am not a fan of the RRM turbo... but anyway
Last edited by sdhotwn; Feb 27, 2004 at 11:50 AM.
Feb 27, 2004, 11:44 AM
#168
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Originally posted by sdhotwn
And for the record I also am not a fan of the RRM turbo... but anyway
And for the record I also am not a fan of the RRM turbo... but anyway
. anyways i think a good point is that no one is really stating that rippmods is the ULTIMATE choice for our cars. people in general are just excited to see a new product, that produces good power. its pretty obvious for great power and speed, your never going to be able to choose anything over a turbo. basically what it all comes down to is what you want to do to your car. if you want quick/fast (nothing too crazy/wild and nothing that requires internals), then i think the supercharger would be your best bet. now if your looking for fast/#$%^ing fast (high boost, change your internals), then yes turbo would be the best bet. so yeah it all depends on what you want, and how much change is in your pocket 
. i know for a fact, if i had the money i would make it a track monster. but i dont (i want to make a track monster out of a old honda hatchback body anyway), so i want something to make my car faster and reliable without tearing apart my brand new motor. by the way...... have you noticed that its always the turbo guys ripping on the people interested in supercharging? (hHmHMm rrm guys)....... its funny to me how they are always on the attack. no one ever said rippmods was the best/fastest way to make our lancers.
Feb 27, 2004, 11:53 AM
#169
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If it wasn't shaft driven I'd be in favor of it. Also if it actually made some kind of actual power more than the turbo kits that are available for the same amount of money I'd be really in favor of it.
I just simply like boost
Problem is not enough people on this forum understand the nature of superchargers and what ripp is actually providing. I've seen too many people saying that they think it is so great and the way to go etc. I think this particular super is going to be hard on internals because of the peak boost that they are using, and they are compensating for that and trying to get more horsepower out by doing methanol injection. Typically supers are better for internals because of MUCH lower outlet temps.. but since this is a centrifigul (sp?) that will not be the case and thus that "safety" of a super is now gone... so that sucks.
There are pluses and minuses to both for sure. Turbos are by no means without their faults that is for SURE!
I just simply like boost
Problem is not enough people on this forum understand the nature of superchargers and what ripp is actually providing. I've seen too many people saying that they think it is so great and the way to go etc. I think this particular super is going to be hard on internals because of the peak boost that they are using, and they are compensating for that and trying to get more horsepower out by doing methanol injection. Typically supers are better for internals because of MUCH lower outlet temps.. but since this is a centrifigul (sp?) that will not be the case and thus that "safety" of a super is now gone... so that sucks.
There are pluses and minuses to both for sure. Turbos are by no means without their faults that is for SURE!
Last edited by sdhotwn; Feb 27, 2004 at 11:59 AM.
Feb 27, 2004, 12:02 PM
#170
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well, vortech has had much success with their civic/integra kits. and they told me that rippmods DEFINATELY knows what they are doing so...... well i guess we'll just have to wait and see. your right though, everything has their pluses and minuses. i think a roots style supercharger would definately have been a waste of money they are only known to produce 50-60 hp on most 4cyl applications. so the "vortech style" will be more beneficial for making power.
Feb 27, 2004, 12:11 PM
#171
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not to rain on you guys...but the guys at RRM are great!...of course they are going to prefer thier turbo...why because it thier product...who would buy it if they didnt stand beside it? Ripp stands beside thier product and prefer thiers...because its thiers...your right about people noy knowing everything about ripps system...and the only thing that i have ever seen an RRM guy talk about A Ripp system was when one of them installed the SDS onn a 3g eclipse and there were a bunch of parts missing...
i was considering gertting the SDS...im in so cal so youknow who would have installed it for me...prolly RRM...but i decided not to go the sds part mainly because there is no support out here in so cal...if i go RRM...and something goes wrong...they would know exactly whats wrong with it...i turst those guys to the fullest...hell...they even helped me intall a kamikaze header last weekend...and they dont even make the damn thing...those guys are great...and they are always willing to help people out...thats why i would go with them
i was considering gertting the SDS...im in so cal so youknow who would have installed it for me...prolly RRM...but i decided not to go the sds part mainly because there is no support out here in so cal...if i go RRM...and something goes wrong...they would know exactly whats wrong with it...i turst those guys to the fullest...hell...they even helped me intall a kamikaze header last weekend...and they dont even make the damn thing...those guys are great...and they are always willing to help people out...thats why i would go with them
Feb 27, 2004, 12:31 PM
#172
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Oh don't get me wrong. I think RRM is a great group of guys and has done TONS for the community. I'm just not a fan of their turbo. Fan of them, but not blindly like many people on here who will only do RRM. "If it's not RRM it's crap!" Is too common of a mentality around this forum. But that's probably just because they are such a good group of guys.
Also the supercharger is a good option, and worth buying. But it's an even toss up with a turbo if you are just aiming for 200 hp and not going to do anything more. Any claims of it being superior I don't think are founded really. Is it good. Yep! Is a turbo good. Yep! Is either really any much better? Tossup for the most part leaning toward the turbo.
Also the supercharger is a good option, and worth buying. But it's an even toss up with a turbo if you are just aiming for 200 hp and not going to do anything more. Any claims of it being superior I don't think are founded really. Is it good. Yep! Is a turbo good. Yep! Is either really any much better? Tossup for the most part leaning toward the turbo.
Feb 27, 2004, 09:33 PM
#173
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Ya - i hate when people diss stuff that isnt RRM just because they were on the scene first for our cars. I think its really cool that more than one company is finally providing a FI option for our car, which may in sometime mean cheaper prices do to companies competing for our business?
Anyway - if im just "racing" from 0-60 and street light to street light would the supercharger be better since it spools a little faster?
Anyway - if im just "racing" from 0-60 and street light to street light would the supercharger be better since it spools a little faster?
Feb 27, 2004, 11:50 PM
#175
im sick of the "turbo has 'spool' up time so its not as good" the average turbo spools just as fast as a supercharger....YES a supercharger has 'spool' up time...its not reaching 11psi at 500 rpms....no no its at like 2 psi....its not at 11 til maybe 4k rpms...while ur supercahrger is at 7psi at 3k...just food for thought lol
if ur just doin 0-60 and street light...i'd go custom turbo...its not that hard to do, yeah its not like installing an intake...but its not as bad as getting teeth pulled...(albeit i have not installed a turbo, but may do it shortly..)
if ur just doin 0-60 and street light...i'd go custom turbo...its not that hard to do, yeah its not like installing an intake...but its not as bad as getting teeth pulled...(albeit i have not installed a turbo, but may do it shortly..)
Feb 28, 2004, 06:01 AM
#176
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Well the thing is that if a super makes 10 psi at 5K then it makes 5 psi at 2.5k and 2.5 psi at 1.25K. Versus a T28 on our cars will make the full 10 psi by 2.5K basically. So that's the benefit there, and it can and does make some small boost at the lower rpms ranges. (Drive02 has a typo.. I think he meant while ur turbo is at 7psi at 3k)
As far as my ideal FI. On our cars because of what they are a well tuned turbo system is what I consider ideal. Basically the turbo needs to be setup based on its compressor maps to be able to efficiently product boost starting down near 2K and still have the CFM to push a good 15 psi max at 5K.
If you could find a way to do better isolation of the compressor from the turbine in a turbo system you could vastly improve the efficiency because there would not be so much heat seapage. Which would be a HUGE help in the efficiency of the system.
For a while a company use to make turbos that had adjustable vains on the outer edges of the compressor wheel. Those were fantastic because they could be made to spool quickly yet still have the power later to create a power throughput up top.
For larger cars and top formula drag the rules and so forth change quite a bit. But there is a reason why 1000 hp supras and skylines run turbo's and not supers. Plain and simple you always be able to make MORE power in the long run with a turbo.
The benefits to superchargers are their increased reliability, efficiency, few number of parts, simpler installation, simpler control etc. They don't need wastegates, BOV's, tons of piping, IC's typically, etc. But keep in mind that a supercharger is ALWAYS a parasitc device. it will always rob power from the engine. It is just that it simply generates enough power to overcome what it robs. On 1000 hp dragsters running superchargers the super actually robs something like 500 hp or more. So that means that the car makes 1500 hp but only has 1000 available because 500 is needed just to drive the super.
The SDS is probably similar. At 10 psi with methanol injection I'd say that a turbo would make close to 270 whp. (really rough no actual mathematics estimation) so that would mean that about 50 hp is being robbed in the ripp mods charger to run the charger.
Make sense? If you are running very high CFM, and trying to do that with out lag you will often need a super to do that. If you don't need that much cfm (like our cars) then you can get away with a lag free turbo by desigining it right. In other words you can't through a monster T3/T4 combo onto our cars and expect to make good boost at 2.5K , but you can if you use a T28.
Later.
Steve
As far as my ideal FI. On our cars because of what they are a well tuned turbo system is what I consider ideal. Basically the turbo needs to be setup based on its compressor maps to be able to efficiently product boost starting down near 2K and still have the CFM to push a good 15 psi max at 5K.
If you could find a way to do better isolation of the compressor from the turbine in a turbo system you could vastly improve the efficiency because there would not be so much heat seapage. Which would be a HUGE help in the efficiency of the system.
For a while a company use to make turbos that had adjustable vains on the outer edges of the compressor wheel. Those were fantastic because they could be made to spool quickly yet still have the power later to create a power throughput up top.
For larger cars and top formula drag the rules and so forth change quite a bit. But there is a reason why 1000 hp supras and skylines run turbo's and not supers. Plain and simple you always be able to make MORE power in the long run with a turbo.
The benefits to superchargers are their increased reliability, efficiency, few number of parts, simpler installation, simpler control etc. They don't need wastegates, BOV's, tons of piping, IC's typically, etc. But keep in mind that a supercharger is ALWAYS a parasitc device. it will always rob power from the engine. It is just that it simply generates enough power to overcome what it robs. On 1000 hp dragsters running superchargers the super actually robs something like 500 hp or more. So that means that the car makes 1500 hp but only has 1000 available because 500 is needed just to drive the super.
The SDS is probably similar. At 10 psi with methanol injection I'd say that a turbo would make close to 270 whp. (really rough no actual mathematics estimation) so that would mean that about 50 hp is being robbed in the ripp mods charger to run the charger.
Make sense? If you are running very high CFM, and trying to do that with out lag you will often need a super to do that. If you don't need that much cfm (like our cars) then you can get away with a lag free turbo by desigining it right. In other words you can't through a monster T3/T4 combo onto our cars and expect to make good boost at 2.5K , but you can if you use a T28.
Later.
Steve
Feb 28, 2004, 08:50 AM
#177
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Hey - just a little off topic... well kind of on topic for this thread.
I just took out my test pipe , and now taking a little break before i put the cat in - but just keeping ya updated, haha. I will let you guys know if i think it sounds better or not.
I just took out my test pipe , and now taking a little break before i put the cat in - but just keeping ya updated, haha. I will let you guys know if i think it sounds better or not.
Feb 28, 2004, 10:38 AM
#178
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alright i took out the test pipe - so if anyone wants one - PM me.
also the sound is not nearly as loud and im not going to lie, i like it 100X better, finally can floor it and not be worried about cops hearing and getting pulled over.
also the sound is not nearly as loud and im not going to lie, i like it 100X better, finally can floor it and not be worried about cops hearing and getting pulled over.
Mar 1, 2004, 08:53 AM
#179
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I was cruisn down the highway running 80Mph when all of a sudden this year 200+ galant w/ muffler passed me then lighted the hazard sign telling me he owned me when i didnt know him coming...so i did a 120mph chase, passed him, turned the hazard sign, after that I slowed down to about 65Mph and waited for him to get by me, stared at him for few seconds and downshifted stepping on it till 100mph he kept up for a little while then slowly, saw his headlight on my side mirrors, so i turned my hazard sign again telling him I owned his *** twice. Reason I posted this, is basically to tell y'all that kamikaze headers will give you lots of top end...u'll enjoy urself on the highway with this thing. Good work Kamikaze!