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Need help with bov flutter please?

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Old Feb 11, 2009, 03:27 PM
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Need help with bov flutter please?

Hey guyes, i havent been on here for a while so i will tell it again, my 04 Ralliart has a custom turbo set up running a t3/t4 witha blitz DD bov (recurculated). Ever since i had the install finished i get this flutter sound when i shift, sounds nothin glike sound clips on youtube. I only get a consistand pppsssshhhh when full throttle (im running only 5 psi by the way). Before i buy new parts i did some research, on compressor surge, and bov flutter. Sometimes my turbo sounds different and my bov sounds completely different almost like it is not opening at all. So i thought it was compressor surge because of the cchh cchh cchh when i shift, then i heard about bov flutter and the spring being to tight? Has anyone else had this problem with there turbo RA. I currently just bought the AEM uego sensor, boost controller, and new custom IC and intake pipes, i am going to be running around 10psi and venting to the atmosphere, will this solve my problem or do i need to loosen my bov spring? PLEASE HELP!! Thanks guys
Old Feb 11, 2009, 04:28 PM
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Hi,
This off http://www.automotivehelper.com/topic11800.htm after a quick google search.
Google Google Google!


The "Sequential" Myth
Added on 21st June, 2004

We’ve had a lot of enquiries recently beginning with the question “do you have the valve that makes that sequential noise?”. There is a common misconception that the fluttering, chirping kind of noise that people often hear, is caused by a sequential valve. This is NOT correct, in fact, there is no such thing as a blow-off valve that makes this kind of noise.

The term “sequential” is applied to HKS’ Super Sequential because it has two valves that open one after the other, the small inner valve opens first, which then pulls the second, larger valve open. By this definition, GFB’s Hybrid, Bovus Maximus and Stealth FX valves are also sequential, as there are two ports, which open one after the other.

The fluttering noise is in fact compressor surge, caused by pressurised air blowing back through the turbo when you close the throttle. Compressor surge occurs when the blades of the compressor “slip” in the air, much like an aeroplane wing stalling. This condition is most common when shutting the throttle and not opening a BOV far enough, but it can also occur with the throttle open under boost conditions if the turbo is not correctly matched to the engine. The fluttering noise is simply a result of the pressurised air trying to escape through the turbo, and the turbo attempting (under its own momentum) to cram it back in. The high velocities of the air involved can sometimes make a chirping noise in combination with the flutter.

Whilst the noise does not actually come from the blow-off valve itself, it can be caused by the blow-off valve. When the spring pre-load is set too hard, or the valve itself cannot flow enough air, compressor surge will result. Generally, if the spring is too hard, you will tend to hear the surge at low to medium RPM and boost conditions, with a normal “whoosh” at higher engine speeds and boost. If the valve is too small for the task, the surge will occur at high RPM and boost.

It is possible for the blow-off valve to open and still cause surge, as at lower RPM and boost the compressor is closer to the point of surging. Turbos can surge even with the valve half open at low RPM, and yet at high RPM even with the same valve opening, it does not surge. If you’ve ever watched the piston of a blow-off valve open when the turbo surges, you’ll usually see it flutter up and down, which is what leads people to think it is the valve causing the noise. It is in fact the pressure fluctuations in the turbo piping caused by the surge. If you hook a boost gauge near the turbo, you can see the pressure fluctuating as the compressor surges.

Ok, so how do I get that noise, then?
Quite simply, all you need to do is increase the backpressure in the turbo piping when you lift off the throttle. This can be done by removing the valve totally (not recommended – see paragraph below), or adjusting the spring on your valve harder. This will allow the valve to open at higher RPM and vent normally, and at low RPM will increase the amount of air flowing back through the turbo.

However, the noise that you get is totally dependant on your individual engine/turbo/intercooler/air filter setup. A stock intake air filter box will usually muffle the noise very significantly, pod-type filters will make the noise much more obvious. Secondly, the noise is very dependant on the type of turbo. Usually you will find that smaller turbos such as the TD04 used on WRX’s will not surge as readily, and do not sound the same at all. Nissan turbos such as those used on the 200SX and GTS-T readily surge at low RPM (accelerate moderately to about 3000 RPM, roll off the throttle, and you’ll usually hear it on a Nissan). Larger intercooler set-ups also increase the chance of surge, as there is a significantly larger volume for the valve to evacuate.

So if the noise is compressor surge, will it wreck the turbo?
This is a very grey area, dependant on too many variables to say yes or no. Generally, if the surge is only occurring at low RPM and boost, then there really isn’t going to be a detrimental effect on the turbo. You only need to compare the loads placed on the turbo at full boost near redline to the small amount of surge at low RPM to see this. If the surge is occurring when you are driving flat out at high boost (greater than stock), then the risk of turbo damage and/or a reduced turbo lifespan is greatly increased. Also bear in mind that driving style alone probably has the greatest effect on the life of your turbo!
Old Feb 11, 2009, 05:20 PM
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your bov is essentially a relief valve...
if anything, you need to have it recalibrated to the proper PSI setting...


this is all just an opinion though.
Old Feb 12, 2009, 05:40 AM
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If I recall correctly the Blitz has an adjustment bolt on the top. Loosen the nut and back it off a few turns until the problem goes away. If it's too loose the BOV will leak at idle. Since you're recirc that probably won't be a big problem. Sometimes they will leak at 20+psi as well but I've mostly only seen that on chinese knockoffs.

-Michael
Old Feb 12, 2009, 05:57 AM
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Hey I appreciate the fast comments guys, sorry i have not been on here ina really long. The real world out of college has me so busy! lol, but im back on and getting some new mods. Ok last night i went outside and unloosened the bolt on top of the bov then loosened the spring all the way until it there was no tension, then i did one full turn back in. Drove the car a lil, the flutter is still there. Dont haze me for this guy, this is my first turbo car that i only did a little work on, my mechanic was telling me maybe i have a hole in the vacuum line? But where are the vacume lines. I have had one question "spooling" around in my head lol, when the car was dont for the first time and on the road this summer i went to see it, and he took me for a ride in it, still had minor tweaking to do but for the most part it was don’t. This is when we had the blitz bov vented to atmosphere. He took off in 2nd and man that thing was loud, sounded just like every other blitz dd i have heard, sweet sound. And that was still at 5psi, but now since we have recalculated it due to problems with the engine not liking me venting air, it flutters. Now i know for a fact that it is not due to that face of recalculating it, that just re-directs the air to a different place, so im still trying to figure out what it can be. The only things i can think of are, surge, not enough boost to open it (but it is at it's lightest setting), or i have a whole in my vacuum line (but where is it lol) Thanks a bunch guys for helping a guy out!
Old Feb 12, 2009, 06:12 AM
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I will try to get some sound clips tonight, i am going to play around with my bov spring tonigh again to see what is wrong. Oh i forgot to add, i know the car wont run right i just wanted to see if it made a differente, so i took the recurculation hose off, and plugged it, the bov still sounded the same, wierd ha? Anyknow how to fix this or what it is, i will post some vids tonight or tomarrow, thanks guys.
Old Feb 12, 2009, 06:41 AM
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Hey guys me again, just was talking to my mechanic and i asked him the newb question about vacuum lines, he said the line attached to the back of the bov. I said "the 90 degree elbow with a nipple on it" he said yeah there should be a hose there. I said dam that has'nt been one there since i could remember. So yeah at lunch time i will be checking for a hose just aimlessly flopping around and try to reconnect. Would the possibly be the solution to my problem? Who knows we will see.......doesn’t change the fact that im still boosting more in a week or so haha.
Old Feb 12, 2009, 09:41 AM
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That would solve your problem. I suggest looking up a turbo and associated stuff under how stuff works or something. At least you may learn what to do and what not to do.

-Michael
Old Feb 12, 2009, 02:21 PM
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i know how almosteverything in my car works, just was saying it was my first car, and there ar multiple vaccum lines in my car. Well i will be making videos tonight or tomarrow to post to see what everyone thinks of the flutter or surge which ever it is. I am going to go check if there is a whole in my vacum line right now. But first i was reading a few posts today and it seems like there is an awfull lot that can contribute to your bov fluttering and or compressor surges, is that true, if so how the hell to i check it all haha, thanks guys. More help is very welcome
Old Feb 12, 2009, 07:05 PM
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Ok new update, i went outside today to fiddle with this stupid flutter problem. First i checked all lines, and they were all fine, tightened everything, and listened for leaks, and it was all good. So then i said what the heck i will fool around a bit, so i pulled the recurculation tube off my blitz dd. Then i said well i want to see if the cylinder in the bov is working properly, so i pulled that little face plate off the blitz dd bov, and started it up to see if it opened when i let off the gas. Well it was wierd because it sounded LOUD and perfectm not like the flutter noise when the recurculation tube and bov face plate was on there, which was the wierd part becuase i did'nt plug the recurculation tube i just let it hang there. It did iddle rough so i desided to plug my recurculation tube, and bam it shut off WTF WTF!!!, so then i sdesided i wil take my K&N filter off, so i did. The recurculation tube was still pluged and bov still vented, and pppppssshhhhhhhh, again just a little bit softer since it was coming through the pipe insead of straight from the bov. Can anyone help me with this i cant for the love of god find out what the why it works like that, and it is killin me. So then i put the recurculation tube back on the bov, and my filter back on and bam flutter time once again, Someone pleeeaaassseee help!
Old Feb 12, 2009, 07:09 PM
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Try adding a stiffer spring. Sounds like the low boost is causing it to open when you don't want it to.
Old Feb 12, 2009, 07:12 PM
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IMO, the flutter is normal on a recirc setup. Listen to an Evo with an aftermarket DV when letting off at partial throttle, you get the same fluttering noise. At most, as hackish said, you might just need to back off the spring a bit.
Old Feb 13, 2009, 04:30 AM
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I know thie flutter is normal but it only happens when i have my filter on, i wish i could have made a video for your guys explaining this you would be wondering what is going on also, but yeah. recurc pipe is off it sounds normal, but then when the recurc pipe is closedthe engine just shuts off lol, then i hook the recurc pipe back to the bov, and take off my filter to clean it, it sounds normal again, put on my filter and flutter time
Old Feb 13, 2009, 05:37 AM
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IMO, you should sell off the blitz, get with Chris @ No Limit and get you a Synchronic. Problem solved for the most part.
Old Feb 13, 2009, 06:20 AM
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Well, me assesment of what i messed around with last night between the, vented bov working with the recurc tube off, then with the plugged recurc tube it stalled right after rev, and then i hooked up the recurc tube to the bov, took of my K&N filter and it ran fine, so i cleaned my filter stuck it back on and were back to flutter. So i think that maybe just pressurizing my MAF (maf between the bov and the intake manifold down towards the IC) and a more short ram tipe intake with a better filter would solve the problem, and thing to add on to that?


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