Evo X vs. Evo VIII and IX
Dec 10, 2008, 10:35 PM
#1651
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To STI2EVOX:
Ok I'm bringing the arguement to where they belong.
First arguement:
- I'm no way questioning you on the regard that vast amount of suspension improvements was made from IX to X, and given equal weight, X should no doubt outhandle IX due to wider tires, stiffer chassis and better AWD system. But my question is, 'Can the improvement really over come the extra 243lbs (JDM X GSR vs JDM IX GSR so there is no AYC discrepancy) to result noticable advantage of section times in turns assuming both cars were driven by pros?'. I am not making any claims as I have no data, so if you can provide a reasonable data to back up then I will accept and move on.
I see 'A is a better handling car than B' as simply shorter time taken from one point to the other with some sort of turn(s) in between, completely disregarding the aspect of the behavior of the car and how much the car corrects and aids inexperienced drivers. Weight and power plays critical role in motorsports and I can't think of many occasion where a team would choose to add more bracings and widen the tire at the cost of any weight above the required amount and aerodynamics disadvantage.
Second arguement:
- Ohlins IX vs Ohlins X
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAbD4...eature=related
There is no doubt there is a huge gap between the IX's engine mods and the X's, as you can see how the IX pulls off in the straight line at the beginning of the third lap. But do you see any advantages during turns for the X except times where the IX had to brake because it got too close? The '5-7mph higher average in some of the turns', I am sure this was mainly due to this reason. As this has been happening for the first two out of three laps.
Other than the engine mods, you can see that both cars are JDM GSR's from seeing the piano black trim, both cars have roll cage and retain majority of the interiors. Most likely they have ohlins coilovers and some sort of sway bar upgrades. The wheels and brake upgrade should be linear in both cars as you can see their sizes. In terms of additional bracing, I don't know, because they're not shown or mentioned, perhaps there is none, or maybe a lot on the IX but not much on the X, but it is likely that they have received similar amount of enhancement. Only visible weight reduction is the exhaust and they're of similar reduction from what I can see. The windows look pretty stock to me, they don't seem like lexans at all. Only weight advantage in this case would be the initial X vs IX difference, although I cannot make any claims until I find out the entire list of modifications.
Only conclusion I can make from seeing this video is that the X and IX in the video, which seem to have similar suspension mods, don't show any cornering advantage on either cars. Perhaps you could correct me that IX had much more advantageous list of suspension mods and/or the weight difference of the cars was greater than the initial 243lbs.
Ok I'm bringing the arguement to where they belong.
First arguement:
- I'm no way questioning you on the regard that vast amount of suspension improvements was made from IX to X, and given equal weight, X should no doubt outhandle IX due to wider tires, stiffer chassis and better AWD system. But my question is, 'Can the improvement really over come the extra 243lbs (JDM X GSR vs JDM IX GSR so there is no AYC discrepancy) to result noticable advantage of section times in turns assuming both cars were driven by pros?'. I am not making any claims as I have no data, so if you can provide a reasonable data to back up then I will accept and move on.
I see 'A is a better handling car than B' as simply shorter time taken from one point to the other with some sort of turn(s) in between, completely disregarding the aspect of the behavior of the car and how much the car corrects and aids inexperienced drivers. Weight and power plays critical role in motorsports and I can't think of many occasion where a team would choose to add more bracings and widen the tire at the cost of any weight above the required amount and aerodynamics disadvantage.
Second arguement:
- Ohlins IX vs Ohlins X
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAbD4...eature=related
There is no doubt there is a huge gap between the IX's engine mods and the X's, as you can see how the IX pulls off in the straight line at the beginning of the third lap. But do you see any advantages during turns for the X except times where the IX had to brake because it got too close? The '5-7mph higher average in some of the turns', I am sure this was mainly due to this reason. As this has been happening for the first two out of three laps.
Other than the engine mods, you can see that both cars are JDM GSR's from seeing the piano black trim, both cars have roll cage and retain majority of the interiors. Most likely they have ohlins coilovers and some sort of sway bar upgrades. The wheels and brake upgrade should be linear in both cars as you can see their sizes. In terms of additional bracing, I don't know, because they're not shown or mentioned, perhaps there is none, or maybe a lot on the IX but not much on the X, but it is likely that they have received similar amount of enhancement. Only visible weight reduction is the exhaust and they're of similar reduction from what I can see. The windows look pretty stock to me, they don't seem like lexans at all. Only weight advantage in this case would be the initial X vs IX difference, although I cannot make any claims until I find out the entire list of modifications.
Only conclusion I can make from seeing this video is that the X and IX in the video, which seem to have similar suspension mods, don't show any cornering advantage on either cars. Perhaps you could correct me that IX had much more advantageous list of suspension mods and/or the weight difference of the cars was greater than the initial 243lbs.
Dec 10, 2008, 11:03 PM
#1652
To STI2EVOX:
Ok I'm bringing the arguement to where they belong.
First arguement:
- I'm no way questioning you on the regard that vast amount of suspension improvements was made from IX to X, and given equal weight, X should no doubt outhandle IX due to wider tires, stiffer chassis and better AWD system. But my question is, 'Can the improvement really over come the extra 243lbs (JDM X GSR vs JDM IX GSR so there is no AYC discrepancy) to result noticable advantage of section times in turns assuming both cars were driven by pros?'. I am not making any claims as I have no data, so if you can provide a reasonable data to back up then I will accept and move on.
I see 'A is a better handling car than B' as simply shorter time taken from one point to the other with some sort of turn(s) in between, completely disregarding the aspect of the behavior of the car and how much the car corrects and aids inexperienced drivers. Weight and power plays critical role in motorsports and I can't think of many occasion where a team would choose to add more bracings and widen the tire at the cost of any weight above the required amount and aerodynamics disadvantage.
Second arguement:
- Ohlins IX vs Ohlins X
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAbD4...eature=related
There is no doubt there is a huge gap between the IX's engine mods and the X's, as you can see how the IX pulls off in the straight line at the beginning of the third lap. But do you see any advantages during turns for the X except times where the IX had to brake because it got too close? The '5-7mph higher average in some of the turns', I am sure this was mainly due to this reason. As this has been happening for the first two out of three laps.
Other than the engine mods, you can see that both cars are JDM GSR's from seeing the piano black trim, both cars have roll cage and retain majority of the interiors. Most likely they have ohlins coilovers and some sort of sway bar upgrades. The wheels and brake upgrade should be linear in both cars as you can see their sizes. In terms of additional bracing, I don't know, because they're not shown or mentioned, perhaps there is none, or maybe a lot on the IX but not much on the X, but it is likely that they have received similar amount of enhancement. Only visible weight reduction is the exhaust and they're of similar reduction from what I can see. The windows look pretty stock to me, they don't seem like lexans at all. Only weight advantage in this case would be the initial X vs IX difference, although I cannot make any claims until I find out the entire list of modifications.
Only conclusion I can make from seeing this video is that the X and IX in the video, which seem to have similar suspension mods, don't show any cornering advantage on either cars. Perhaps you could correct me that IX had much more advantageous list of suspension mods and/or the weight difference of the cars was greater than the initial 243lbs.
Ok I'm bringing the arguement to where they belong.
First arguement:
- I'm no way questioning you on the regard that vast amount of suspension improvements was made from IX to X, and given equal weight, X should no doubt outhandle IX due to wider tires, stiffer chassis and better AWD system. But my question is, 'Can the improvement really over come the extra 243lbs (JDM X GSR vs JDM IX GSR so there is no AYC discrepancy) to result noticable advantage of section times in turns assuming both cars were driven by pros?'. I am not making any claims as I have no data, so if you can provide a reasonable data to back up then I will accept and move on.
I see 'A is a better handling car than B' as simply shorter time taken from one point to the other with some sort of turn(s) in between, completely disregarding the aspect of the behavior of the car and how much the car corrects and aids inexperienced drivers. Weight and power plays critical role in motorsports and I can't think of many occasion where a team would choose to add more bracings and widen the tire at the cost of any weight above the required amount and aerodynamics disadvantage.
Second arguement:
- Ohlins IX vs Ohlins X
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAbD4...eature=related
There is no doubt there is a huge gap between the IX's engine mods and the X's, as you can see how the IX pulls off in the straight line at the beginning of the third lap. But do you see any advantages during turns for the X except times where the IX had to brake because it got too close? The '5-7mph higher average in some of the turns', I am sure this was mainly due to this reason. As this has been happening for the first two out of three laps.
Other than the engine mods, you can see that both cars are JDM GSR's from seeing the piano black trim, both cars have roll cage and retain majority of the interiors. Most likely they have ohlins coilovers and some sort of sway bar upgrades. The wheels and brake upgrade should be linear in both cars as you can see their sizes. In terms of additional bracing, I don't know, because they're not shown or mentioned, perhaps there is none, or maybe a lot on the IX but not much on the X, but it is likely that they have received similar amount of enhancement. Only visible weight reduction is the exhaust and they're of similar reduction from what I can see. The windows look pretty stock to me, they don't seem like lexans at all. Only weight advantage in this case would be the initial X vs IX difference, although I cannot make any claims until I find out the entire list of modifications.
Only conclusion I can make from seeing this video is that the X and IX in the video, which seem to have similar suspension mods, don't show any cornering advantage on either cars. Perhaps you could correct me that IX had much more advantageous list of suspension mods and/or the weight difference of the cars was greater than the initial 243lbs.
you really are looking '4trouble'.It's been a while since I've seen the vid, and I think the same arguments were made. I'm curious as to what rear diffs they were both using, if they had s-ayc or not. It seems to me the X is able to get his foot on the gas a little earlier, albeit that could be because the IX is behind. In general from what I can see the X seems to pull out of the corner really well.
Dec 10, 2008, 11:45 PM
#1653
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lol I guess but these kind of arguments are fun as long as it doesn't turn into flames or personal attacks.
Most likely they had the s-ayc's as both are JDM GSR trims from seeing the interior.
I don't know whether the differentials were changed.
Yep that is exactly what was happening, it is no different than brake checking then taking off, front driver is already on the gas while the other driver is still on deceleration from braking. During the time IX was behind the X and when this 'brake check' was not an issue, you see that both cars were maintaining almost identical distances throught the turns although it seems the X had noticeable advantage in the S section. When the IX was ahead of X, I don't see X creeping up on the IX, although towards the very end they were too far apart to see that clearly. I don't know why the Z4 M coupe appears briefly in between the two cars then later disappears, maybe the video is fabricated
Most likely they had the s-ayc's as both are JDM GSR trims from seeing the interior.
I don't know whether the differentials were changed.
Yep that is exactly what was happening, it is no different than brake checking then taking off, front driver is already on the gas while the other driver is still on deceleration from braking. During the time IX was behind the X and when this 'brake check' was not an issue, you see that both cars were maintaining almost identical distances throught the turns although it seems the X had noticeable advantage in the S section. When the IX was ahead of X, I don't see X creeping up on the IX, although towards the very end they were too far apart to see that clearly. I don't know why the Z4 M coupe appears briefly in between the two cars then later disappears, maybe the video is fabricated
Dec 11, 2008, 12:15 AM
#1654
4 trouble, As far as the advan video is concerned, I wish I could answer more of your questions about the technical differences between the two cars, but the problem is that the comments are very vague and don't really tell much about the cars other than what I mentioned earlier. I understand what you mean about handling ability needing to be balanced with straightline speed, and that race teams will always try to choose the best balance, even if it means less of one to get more of the other. This is true.
However, you cannot say that if the better handling car loses that it must not handle better afterall, because that's not how cornering ability is measured. The X does handle better than the 9, tracks straighter with less bump steer, etc but is handicapped by the weight increase. This lends itself to giving the X the edge on a tight twisty track with minimal straights and lots of curves, and gives the 9 the advantage on a faster course with less turns and more straights. Once heavy modding is done however, the handling disadvantage of the 9 is minimized and the weight advantage rears it's ugly face against the X.
What this means is that unless weight reduction is done to the X, the 9 will have an advantage because even though the X still handles better, it doesn't SO much better as to offset the weight that it has over the 9. Since we are talking about full race preparation, both cars are going to be shedding any and all unnecessary weight and that includes safety features like airbags. The X has more weight that can be dropped than the 9 does, thanks to 5 more airbags and thicker, heavier door crash beams. With full weight reduction done to both cars, the X will still be heavier than the 9, but only a little bit.
However, the X should still handle better than the 9, so now it comes down to the driver. As I've said many times before, it really depends on what your intentions are with the car. Will it be kept in street trim with full safety features, or will it be a full on track beast? In street trim, the X will always have the handling edge and the 9 will always have the straightline speed edge. In full race form, it'll be damn close and once AMS finishes it's super time attack X with max weight reduction, we'll have a better idea.
That car is going to compete in the super lap battle that you were talking about earlier, so the results from that will answer a lot of these questions more definitively. Fair enough?
However, you cannot say that if the better handling car loses that it must not handle better afterall, because that's not how cornering ability is measured. The X does handle better than the 9, tracks straighter with less bump steer, etc but is handicapped by the weight increase. This lends itself to giving the X the edge on a tight twisty track with minimal straights and lots of curves, and gives the 9 the advantage on a faster course with less turns and more straights. Once heavy modding is done however, the handling disadvantage of the 9 is minimized and the weight advantage rears it's ugly face against the X.
What this means is that unless weight reduction is done to the X, the 9 will have an advantage because even though the X still handles better, it doesn't SO much better as to offset the weight that it has over the 9. Since we are talking about full race preparation, both cars are going to be shedding any and all unnecessary weight and that includes safety features like airbags. The X has more weight that can be dropped than the 9 does, thanks to 5 more airbags and thicker, heavier door crash beams. With full weight reduction done to both cars, the X will still be heavier than the 9, but only a little bit.
However, the X should still handle better than the 9, so now it comes down to the driver. As I've said many times before, it really depends on what your intentions are with the car. Will it be kept in street trim with full safety features, or will it be a full on track beast? In street trim, the X will always have the handling edge and the 9 will always have the straightline speed edge. In full race form, it'll be damn close and once AMS finishes it's super time attack X with max weight reduction, we'll have a better idea.
That car is going to compete in the super lap battle that you were talking about earlier, so the results from that will answer a lot of these questions more definitively. Fair enough?
Last edited by STi2EvoX; Dec 11, 2008 at 12:22 AM. Reason: reworded and fixed typos
I think you hit right on the nose though. Curious myself to see how the AMS car turns out.
Dec 11, 2008, 06:03 AM
#1656
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I don't really understand why so many of you are adamant about arguing over race car track times and track upgrades. The VIII, IX, and X are all fantastic cars on the track. I do believe the X is a bit easier to drive fast than its predecessors but ultimately, the better driver is going to be faster all other things being equal.
That said, arguing over Youtube races, "track mods," and the results of pro/semi-pro drivers amount to nothing more than a basis for an Internet forum pissing contest. Worrying about which car is the "absolute best" is something someone with a racing budget can concern themselves over.
That said, arguing over Youtube races, "track mods," and the results of pro/semi-pro drivers amount to nothing more than a basis for an Internet forum pissing contest. Worrying about which car is the "absolute best" is something someone with a racing budget can concern themselves over.
Dec 11, 2008, 06:35 AM
#1658
I don't really understand why so many of you are adamant about arguing over race car track times and track upgrades. The VIII, IX, and X are all fantastic cars on the track. I do believe the X is a bit easier to drive fast than its predecessors but ultimately, the better driver is going to be faster all other things being equal.
That said, arguing over Youtube races, "track mods," and the results of pro/semi-pro drivers amount to nothing more than a basis for an Internet forum pissing contest. Worrying about which car is the "absolute best" is something someone with a racing budget can concern themselves over.
That said, arguing over Youtube races, "track mods," and the results of pro/semi-pro drivers amount to nothing more than a basis for an Internet forum pissing contest. Worrying about which car is the "absolute best" is something someone with a racing budget can concern themselves over.
Shhhhh, quiet, don't ruin it for the rest of us. The X forum is easily the most entertaining board on EvoM. The apologies, the excuses, the magazine racing and the insipid comparisons are a frucking riot.
Dec 11, 2008, 07:34 AM
#1661
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The point I wanted to make was that once the weight differences are in hundreds of pounds, there will be moments of cornering where the technology just cannot make up for the weight gain, and these might be during an entire turn, or certain sections within a turn. This may change in the future however as I am pretty sure today's street cars and race cars are already doing things that no one dreamed of 50 years ago physics-wise.
My comparison was for stock X vs IX, so I guess that video was a not a good example but anyways you have conveyed your message and I have conveyed mine.
Caterham 7 (not the CSR versions, which have little too many changes) is a little more extreme example. A car based on a design few decades old, with minor additional bracings. Compared to any evo, the wheels and tires are narrower, chassis/suspension/drivetrain layout are ancient. Yet thanks to well over 1500lbs weight advantage, there will not be many type of turns where it'd go slower than an evo.
But of course, your point is not wrong either, as another extreme example shows: motorcycles vs cars.
Dec 11, 2008, 08:38 AM
#1664
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Caterham Superlight base version stock everything including tires
vs
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X GSR stock everything including tires
simple 60 foot radius U shaped hairpin with no elevation, 1/4 mile straight before and after the turn, dry and warm weather. The clock starts when the car reaches the beginning of the semi circle and ends when it reaches the other side, after the radius makes 180 degree. Both driven by pros.
Would the X set better time?
I'm sure no one would argue that the Evo has superior drivetrain, superior suspension geometry, wider tires and stiffer chassis, just that it needs to overcome 2000lbs of weight, but of course, there will not be moments where superior suspension and drivetrain cannot overcome the weight right? According to you anyways.
Last edited by 4Trouble; Dec 11, 2008 at 08:43 AM.
Dec 11, 2008, 08:42 AM
#1665
It won't be easy to explain, as we need to set many many variables, and would require calculations longer than a telephone book can cover, but lets make a scenario thats simple to set up and easier to understand:
Caterham Superlight base version stock everything including tires
vs
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X GSR stock everything including tires
simple 60 foot radius U shaped hairpin with no elevation, 1/4 mile straight before and after the turn, dry and warm weather. The clock starts when the car reaches the beginning of the semi circle and ends when it reaches the other side. Both driven by pros.
Would the X set better time?
I'm sure no one would argue that the Evo has superior drivetrain, superior suspension geometry, wider tires and stiffer chassis, just that it needs to overcome 2000lbs of weight, but of course, there will not be moments where superior suspension and drivetrain cannot overcome the weight right? According to you anyways.
Caterham Superlight base version stock everything including tires
vs
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X GSR stock everything including tires
simple 60 foot radius U shaped hairpin with no elevation, 1/4 mile straight before and after the turn, dry and warm weather. The clock starts when the car reaches the beginning of the semi circle and ends when it reaches the other side. Both driven by pros.
Would the X set better time?
I'm sure no one would argue that the Evo has superior drivetrain, superior suspension geometry, wider tires and stiffer chassis, just that it needs to overcome 2000lbs of weight, but of course, there will not be moments where superior suspension and drivetrain cannot overcome the weight right? According to you anyways.
i think you dont answere the question. the IX and the X dont have 1500lb difference. this comparision is at least silly.
Why not the X vs go kart then?
you going away big time of topic .
so the question is where the IX gains in the turn over he X?