Evo X vs. Evo VIII and IX
Mar 23, 2009, 05:55 PM
#1981
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I have not owned a X, but I have had my VIII since it was new in 04. I bought the evo cause I wanted a nasty tuner that I could put some money in and take to the track and humiliate people!! Thats what I got, and thats what I'll be sticking with!! If Iwanted nav, more buttons to push, and the feel of luxury I'd buy a BMW! I wanted a race car that made no complaints, or tried to hide what it was under fake luxury! The Evo is rally and race car first and foremost and I personally think that the VIII/IX is the best incarnation of that!
Mar 23, 2009, 06:13 PM
#1983
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dont know what fake luxury everybody refers to cause it never said it would compare or be like a bmw. they just said they wanted to refine it a bit more. and yes i did own a 400 hp evo 8 and loved it but dont regret getting the x. just like everyone else i do miss it from time to time but only cause i had s--t done to it and that's i miss. but i have done some minor stuff to the x and i have to say it feels just as good as my 8 with minor things done. but hey its all on what you want and all, just hate listening to people b--ch about the x and pretend its not an evo or a good evo just cause technology and people want to change. i have fun with mine, have fun with yours. oh and for the record, as far as which one is better, i believe that everyone i know in japan and many others tell me the evo 6.5 tm is/was the best, imo of course.
Mar 23, 2009, 06:53 PM
#1984
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Someone told me they saw "my shark" approaching them on a curvy road. I asked "shark? Why?" They said it had a very aggressive "shark-like" look. Hmm, COOL I thought! My heart still pitters and patters from the stance of the thing standing still. X is a lot of beautiful lines, IMHO.
Mar 27, 2009, 06:13 PM
#1985
Same here. I compared a '06 IX to an '08 X in rate quotes across 5-6 different companies. The X was 20-35% cheaper to insure, depending on the company. The IX had abysmal safety ratings, so that certainly has something to do with it. The price increase also helps keep it out of younger hands, which I'm sure also has some effect. Indeed, my X is only marginally more expensive to insure than my Si, which itself was only about 10% more than my old '98 Civic EX.
The X certainly feels more refined, and lacks some of the edginess of the IX (I haven't driven an 8). This is likely due to its added weight. However, I'd gladly (and did) trade weight for the huge increase in safety and the addition of AYC. If you're willing to make sacrifices, you can always "add lightness" later. Adding safety is a lot harder.
I don't mean to imply safety trumps all, but with a car as capable as an Evo you're going to push it. If the worst happens, I'd rather not be in a car that got a 2 star crash rating and was banned from sale in 2007 because it didn't meet minimum safety requirements.
The X certainly feels more refined, and lacks some of the edginess of the IX (I haven't driven an 8). This is likely due to its added weight. However, I'd gladly (and did) trade weight for the huge increase in safety and the addition of AYC. If you're willing to make sacrifices, you can always "add lightness" later. Adding safety is a lot harder.
I don't mean to imply safety trumps all, but with a car as capable as an Evo you're going to push it. If the worst happens, I'd rather not be in a car that got a 2 star crash rating and was banned from sale in 2007 because it didn't meet minimum safety requirements.
very interesting development for ct9a's here: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...available.html
for those of us ct9a guys looking to match the x's ayc performance - it won't integrate the whole system like s-awc does, but it will great increase handling performance - this plus an upgraded mechanical rear = a set up that will match the s-awc in terms of performance, and the system will lock faster than any evo x's awd system does
if i may once again poke at the embers of war =]
Mar 27, 2009, 06:36 PM
#1986
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It all depends on what you are looking for. If you want an all out performance car, go for the IX. If you want great performance and a more all around balanced car, go for the X. It's a simple fact that you must give up comfort for performance.
Mar 27, 2009, 06:53 PM
#1987
Especially for the X, a lot of times "adding lightness" means removing safety - a lot at times. Not that safety's the biggest factor in choosing an evo - performance is -
very interesting development for ct9a's here: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...available.html
for those of us ct9a guys looking to match the x's ayc performance - it won't integrate the whole system like s-awc does, but it will great increase handling performance - this plus an upgraded mechanical rear = a set up that will match the s-awc in terms of performance, and the system will lock faster than any evo x's awd system does
if i may once again poke at the embers of war =]
very interesting development for ct9a's here: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...available.html
for those of us ct9a guys looking to match the x's ayc performance - it won't integrate the whole system like s-awc does, but it will great increase handling performance - this plus an upgraded mechanical rear = a set up that will match the s-awc in terms of performance, and the system will lock faster than any evo x's awd system does
if i may once again poke at the embers of war =]
Mar 27, 2009, 07:24 PM
#1988
The ACD in our cars stock is not exactly a simple piece of technology - while the s-awc may integrate "everything," the ct9a ACD still functions with sensors measuring, quote, "ABS input, steering wheel angle, throttle opening, wheel speeds, and longitudinal and lateral movements." An ACD that responds faster with increased lock up while factoring in all of those variables plus a rear diff will result in some serious speed.
That's why I said an optimization of this system in conjunction with an aftermarket/upgraded rear diff will likely result in a set up that is comparable to the s-awc - maybe not in terms of sophistication, but raw performance - without sacrificing any weight penalty. Depending on how good this new upgrade is, this ACD reflash will likely result in the 4wd system reacting much faster than the X's, which already lags somewhat.
If you compare the X's s-awc to this set up, if you're honest you can't really give the s-awc much in terms of how much more speed/reduced lap times it will dish out - especially considering the added weight of the s-awc/ayc.
Anyway, I'm really excited to see how these mods will play out - I feel like I've been stuck "inside" all winter, ready to start some driving again!
Mar 27, 2009, 07:56 PM
#1989
Agreed - an ACD change alone would not - but seeing as how a lot of the cars, and all of the RS's in Japan run mechanical rear diffs as the set up of choice, with about equal/insignificant difference in performance to a car equipped with AYC, this is a very good thing -
The ACD in our cars stock is not exactly a simple piece of technology - while the s-awc may integrate "everything," the ct9a ACD still functions with sensors measuring, quote, "ABS input, steering wheel angle, throttle opening, wheel speeds, and longitudinal and lateral movements." An ACD that responds faster with increased lock up while factoring in all of those variables plus a rear diff will result in some serious speed.
That's why I said an optimization of this system in conjunction with an aftermarket/upgraded rear diff will likely result in a set up that is comparable to the s-awc - maybe not in terms of sophistication, but raw performance - without sacrificing any weight penalty. Depending on how good this new upgrade is, this ACD reflash will likely result in the 4wd system reacting much faster than the X's, which already lags somewhat.
If you compare the X's s-awc to this set up, if you're honest you can't really give the s-awc much in terms of how much more speed/reduced lap times it will dish out - especially considering the added weight of the s-awc/ayc.
Anyway, I'm really excited to see how these mods will play out - I feel like I've been stuck "inside" all winter, ready to start some driving again!
The ACD in our cars stock is not exactly a simple piece of technology - while the s-awc may integrate "everything," the ct9a ACD still functions with sensors measuring, quote, "ABS input, steering wheel angle, throttle opening, wheel speeds, and longitudinal and lateral movements." An ACD that responds faster with increased lock up while factoring in all of those variables plus a rear diff will result in some serious speed.
That's why I said an optimization of this system in conjunction with an aftermarket/upgraded rear diff will likely result in a set up that is comparable to the s-awc - maybe not in terms of sophistication, but raw performance - without sacrificing any weight penalty. Depending on how good this new upgrade is, this ACD reflash will likely result in the 4wd system reacting much faster than the X's, which already lags somewhat.
If you compare the X's s-awc to this set up, if you're honest you can't really give the s-awc much in terms of how much more speed/reduced lap times it will dish out - especially considering the added weight of the s-awc/ayc.
Anyway, I'm really excited to see how these mods will play out - I feel like I've been stuck "inside" all winter, ready to start some driving again!
First of all, I'm also not talking about S-AWC (all wheel control). S-AWC is basically just next generation safety nets. Its full traction and stability management for what trouble you could get into for over driving. The traction component cuts throttle electronically. The stability component applies the brakes where needed if a skid or spin is imminent.
I guess SAYC could be put under that list, but its independent of the center differential completely. SAYC doesn't weigh that much at all. Everything but the USDM CT9A cars had it, but we were neutered of it because the VII was designed first and not intended for US consumption. There are emissions bits located where the SAYC module should be.
If you've driven a non US CT9A car or a US CZ4A, you'd know how much better active yaw control is. It completely takes away understeer and will give the car oversteer on demand. It does take a bit to make peace with, but I can carry corner speeds much higher in my X than I could my IX.
True, its necessity at a hardcore track level with wide and/or race rubber and a killer suspension and differential setup is lessened substantially. But the tires, suspension, and alignment on 98%+ of our Evos, the car is flat out faster with active yaw control.
Even at mid level grassroots racing the AYC increases corner speeds. Look at the old Best Motoring "The Evo Strikes Back" where the racing professionals are all faster in the SAYC cars. Look at overseas where the CT9A is a competitor for supercars in stock form, but here its a clearly not in the same class.
IX vs X notwithstanding (weight, power, etc), take equally powered stock IXs one US, one not, and the SAYC car will bust the US car's ***.
Mar 27, 2009, 08:21 PM
#1990
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Having owned both and driven extensively, I can't agree. I know you know all of what I'm about to type, but let me expound a second before I come to the point.
First of all, I'm also not talking about S-AWC (all wheel control). S-AWC is basically just next generation safety nets. Its full traction and stability management for what trouble you could get into for over driving. The traction component cuts throttle electronically. The stability component applies the brakes where needed if a skid or spin is imminent.
I guess SAYC could be put under that list, but its independent of the center differential completely. SAYC doesn't weigh that much at all. Everything but the USDM CT9A cars had it, but we were neutered of it because the VII was designed first and not intended for US consumption. There are emissions bits located where the SAYC module should be.
If you've driven a non US CT9A car or a US CZ4A, you'd know how much better active yaw control is. It completely takes away understeer and will give the car oversteer on demand. It does take a bit to make peace with, but I can carry corner speeds much higher in my X than I could my IX.
True, its necessity at a hardcore track level with wide and/or race rubber and a killer suspension and differential setup is lessened substantially. But the tires, suspension, and alignment on 98%+ of our Evos, the car is flat out faster with active yaw control.
Even at mid level grassroots racing the AYC increases corner speeds. Look at the old Best Motoring "The Evo Strikes Back" where the racing professionals are all faster in the SAYC cars. Look at overseas where the CT9A is a competitor for supercars in stock form, but here its a clearly not in the same class.
IX vs X notwithstanding (weight, power, etc), take equally powered stock IXs one US, one not, and the SAYC car will bust the US car's ***.
First of all, I'm also not talking about S-AWC (all wheel control). S-AWC is basically just next generation safety nets. Its full traction and stability management for what trouble you could get into for over driving. The traction component cuts throttle electronically. The stability component applies the brakes where needed if a skid or spin is imminent.
I guess SAYC could be put under that list, but its independent of the center differential completely. SAYC doesn't weigh that much at all. Everything but the USDM CT9A cars had it, but we were neutered of it because the VII was designed first and not intended for US consumption. There are emissions bits located where the SAYC module should be.
If you've driven a non US CT9A car or a US CZ4A, you'd know how much better active yaw control is. It completely takes away understeer and will give the car oversteer on demand. It does take a bit to make peace with, but I can carry corner speeds much higher in my X than I could my IX.
True, its necessity at a hardcore track level with wide and/or race rubber and a killer suspension and differential setup is lessened substantially. But the tires, suspension, and alignment on 98%+ of our Evos, the car is flat out faster with active yaw control.
Even at mid level grassroots racing the AYC increases corner speeds. Look at the old Best Motoring "The Evo Strikes Back" where the racing professionals are all faster in the SAYC cars. Look at overseas where the CT9A is a competitor for supercars in stock form, but here its a clearly not in the same class.
IX vs X notwithstanding (weight, power, etc), take equally powered stock IXs one US, one not, and the SAYC car will bust the US car's ***.
I agree to everything - I have also driven the X - not on a track, but I got a good idea of how it responds.
but: I haven't been talking about the stock IX diff set up at all (if you've read my past posts - https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...g-ability.html) - you've not driven a ct9a with an upgraded rear diff, and certainly not one with this new acd reflash (it just came out).
I've ridden in one with the upgraded diff, but not this new reflash - though it has had some very positive reactions.
Other problems I've been researching and fixes are various points in the bushings that I've upgraded - with much positive effect to the handling - but of course, USDM IX's being what they are, they will still understeer from that mid corner - corner exit with acceleration.
Totally agree with everything you say - really. The argument I've seen hasn't been anything like that the entire time - The acd reflash and rear diff will give it all of the prowess that a CT9A with s-ayc has, as well as the X's s-ayc. S-awc is the entire package integrated together - not counting it as part of the system doesn't mean it's not there.
to note: I do still have questions with the ACD reflash noted: I asked them in the thread mentioned -
It's very true the CT9A was neutered in its journey to America - if you're saying that an upgraded rear diff and a reflash of the ACD can't match what the s-ayc can do performance-wise.. I can't agree. If you're talking about the stock set up IX not being able to keep up with an S-AYC equipped IX (while having same mods).. totally agree - that's why IX owners like myself do things like this
For the last point you make too - I agree. An S-AYC IX will dominate a USDM IX. But take a S-ayc IX vs. a IX with an upgraded rear diff alone and the difference, as documented, exists - but is very minimal. Add a reflash for the ACD and the advantage is gone entirely. Thus, the system, as a 4wd system, is, like I said, a set up comparable to the X's s-awc (which includes acd and ayc), not in sophistication, but performance/speed capability
Last edited by Meevo; Mar 27, 2009 at 08:42 PM.
Mar 27, 2009, 08:35 PM
#1991
Having owned both and driven extensively, I can't agree. I know you know all of what I'm about to type, but let me expound a second before I come to the point.
First of all, I'm also not talking about S-AWC (all wheel control). S-AWC is basically just next generation safety nets. Its full traction and stability management for what trouble you could get into for over driving. The traction component cuts throttle electronically. The stability component applies the brakes where needed if a skid or spin is imminent.
I guess SAYC could be put under that list, but its independent of the center differential completely. SAYC doesn't weigh that much at all. Everything but the USDM CT9A cars had it, but we were neutered of it because the VII was designed first and not intended for US consumption. There are emissions bits located where the SAYC module should be.
If you've driven a non US CT9A car or a US CZ4A, you'd know how much better active yaw control is. It completely takes away understeer and will give the car oversteer on demand. It does take a bit to make peace with, but I can carry corner speeds much higher in my X than I could my IX.
True, its necessity at a hardcore track level with wide and/or race rubber and a killer suspension and differential setup is lessened substantially. But the tires, suspension, and alignment on 98%+ of our Evos, the car is flat out faster with active yaw control.
Even at mid level grassroots racing the AYC increases corner speeds. Look at the old Best Motoring "The Evo Strikes Back" where the racing professionals are all faster in the SAYC cars. Look at overseas where the CT9A is a competitor for supercars in stock form, but here its a clearly not in the same class.
IX vs X notwithstanding (weight, power, etc), take equally powered stock IXs one US, one not, and the SAYC car will bust the US car's ***.
First of all, I'm also not talking about S-AWC (all wheel control). S-AWC is basically just next generation safety nets. Its full traction and stability management for what trouble you could get into for over driving. The traction component cuts throttle electronically. The stability component applies the brakes where needed if a skid or spin is imminent.
I guess SAYC could be put under that list, but its independent of the center differential completely. SAYC doesn't weigh that much at all. Everything but the USDM CT9A cars had it, but we were neutered of it because the VII was designed first and not intended for US consumption. There are emissions bits located where the SAYC module should be.
If you've driven a non US CT9A car or a US CZ4A, you'd know how much better active yaw control is. It completely takes away understeer and will give the car oversteer on demand. It does take a bit to make peace with, but I can carry corner speeds much higher in my X than I could my IX.
True, its necessity at a hardcore track level with wide and/or race rubber and a killer suspension and differential setup is lessened substantially. But the tires, suspension, and alignment on 98%+ of our Evos, the car is flat out faster with active yaw control.
Even at mid level grassroots racing the AYC increases corner speeds. Look at the old Best Motoring "The Evo Strikes Back" where the racing professionals are all faster in the SAYC cars. Look at overseas where the CT9A is a competitor for supercars in stock form, but here its a clearly not in the same class.
IX vs X notwithstanding (weight, power, etc), take equally powered stock IXs one US, one not, and the SAYC car will bust the US car's ***.
My only point to reiterate is that you can't give the s-awc or s-ayc system enough credit that it alone would provide a competitive advantage over a ix equipped with the acd reflash and tre rear diff upgrade - A total of only $700 - not a lot for diff upgrades like these
i'm sure your 9 without these mods understeered like a rhinocerous - no coilovers, sway bars etc give what these mods can
Last edited by kyoo; Mar 27, 2009 at 08:44 PM.
Mar 27, 2009, 08:38 PM
#1992
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Thats why we have the acd reflash and rear diff upgrades to give it back some ***** =]
My only point to reiterate is that you can't give the s-awc or s-ayc system enough credit that it alone would provide a competitive advantage over a ix equipped with the acd reflash and tre rear diff upgrade - A total of only $700 - not a lot for diff upgrades like these
My only point to reiterate is that you can't give the s-awc or s-ayc system enough credit that it alone would provide a competitive advantage over a ix equipped with the acd reflash and tre rear diff upgrade - A total of only $700 - not a lot for diff upgrades like these
And, well, its $700 + shipping and if you do the installations yourself. Which I can't
Mar 27, 2009, 08:45 PM
#1993
I'm not disagreeing with you guys, but I'd have to drive it on track to see. I can believe the TRE diff will help a ton, but the reflash makes little sense because even if you can send more power to the rear, the ACD cannot send it side to side.
I have never felt a front heavy AWD car oversteer like an X can with AYC. I've almost spun it more than once. But I've made peace with it now and can safely take a hot entry and it will stick where my IX would have been doing an agricultural excusion in the weeds. Its most vivid in higher speed corners.
I have never felt a front heavy AWD car oversteer like an X can with AYC. I've almost spun it more than once. But I've made peace with it now and can safely take a hot entry and it will stick where my IX would have been doing an agricultural excusion in the weeds. Its most vivid in higher speed corners.
Mar 27, 2009, 08:55 PM
#1994
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I'm not disagreeing with you guys, but I'd have to drive it on track to see. I can believe the TRE diff will help a ton, but the reflash makes little sense because even if you can send more power to the rear, the ACD cannot send it side to side.
I have never felt a front heavy AWD car oversteer like an X can with AYC. I've almost spun it more than once. But I've made peace with it now and can safely take a hot entry and it will stick where my IX would have been doing an agricultural excusion in the weeds. Its most vivid in higher speed corners.
I have never felt a front heavy AWD car oversteer like an X can with AYC. I've almost spun it more than once. But I've made peace with it now and can safely take a hot entry and it will stick where my IX would have been doing an agricultural excusion in the weeds. Its most vivid in higher speed corners.
I can only understand that it would respond faster - and wahtever minor advantage that would add. I dunno about "eliminating understeering" All the magazines articles I've read said the stock evo doesn't understeer - I couldn't understand why they said that when I first got the car.
I do remember reading about people with upgraded tre rear diffs spinning out because of the rear being so much more active in corners though. My money will be riding on the tre or cusco rear diff when it comes down to it (for cost's sake, prob tre). As I mentioned before (https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...g-ability.html), when you compare the X with a IX with a tre rear diff - I think the advantages shrink immensely - especially for those who keep near their stock weights in my other thread about this https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/mo...ad-racing.html
Mar 27, 2009, 09:09 PM
#1995
Exactly the same questions I posted in the thread: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ailable-7.html
I can only understand that it would respond faster - and wahtever minor advantage that would add. I dunno about "eliminating understeering" All the magazines articles I've read said the stock evo doesn't understeer - I couldn't understand why they said that when I first got the car.
I do remember reading about people with upgraded tre rear diffs spinning out because of the rear being so much more active in corners though. My money will be riding on the tre or cusco rear diff when it comes down to it (for cost's sake, prob tre). As I mentioned before (https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...g-ability.html), when you compare the X with a IX with a tre rear diff - I think the advantages shrink immensely - especially for those who keep near their stock weights in my other thread about this https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/mo...ad-racing.html
I can only understand that it would respond faster - and wahtever minor advantage that would add. I dunno about "eliminating understeering" All the magazines articles I've read said the stock evo doesn't understeer - I couldn't understand why they said that when I first got the car.
I do remember reading about people with upgraded tre rear diffs spinning out because of the rear being so much more active in corners though. My money will be riding on the tre or cusco rear diff when it comes down to it (for cost's sake, prob tre). As I mentioned before (https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...g-ability.html), when you compare the X with a IX with a tre rear diff - I think the advantages shrink immensely - especially for those who keep near their stock weights in my other thread about this https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/mo...ad-racing.html
I love all Evos, and really enjoyed my IX a ton. I know the SAYC in the X cannot offset the power:weight difference. I'm just talking about cornering speeds and complaining that we even had to find (and pay for) a workaround since our car got neutered. Kudos to the aftermarket.
FWIW, I would love an FQ-360 SAYC IX most of all. Make mine Electric Blue, please.
