atxMR

+1 to the above quotes

Comparing apples to apples you would need to choose the same trim completely showroom stock as they've arrived from the dealer. Drive them on the same course and determine which one gives you feel is more raw or refined than the other. In doing so, you will "feel" the feedback (or lack thereof) from the car's steering, brakes, suspension, motor and so on. The more refined a car is the more it will mask this feedback. Set aside performance ability and try to understand it's something you feel more than the car's ability to perform.

To clear some misconceptions: lighter does not equal raw, more powerful does not equal raw, more uncomfortable does not equal raw. A car that provides a driving experience that would be considered more raw than another may have one or all of these characteristics, but they are not mutally exclusive.

Noize

iTrader: (24)

Well, let's get down to business. Evo I & II have small turbos, not very good chasis. Evo III is the best of the super old cars. Evo IV ends the crankwalk era, but engines are still brittle when you throw a lot of power to them without internals. V and VI are improved.

But an Evo VI will whip an Evo VII on the dyno while weighing less. I have not driven a I - V, but from what I have read, the VI is the best of those cars, last of the old Group A homologation thing.

Really, we are talking about what all cars are suffering from, true Evolution. Cars get heavier, much better safety features, and better performance features too.

I love the X, half my infatuation with the VI is the weight and awesome chassis, but being honest with you, I love that it is uncommon since it did not come to the states. To me, that is something I would be proud to own and never want to separate from.

The VI is the IX of its time. I miss my IX too, and if I sold my X (like I did one time before), I would miss it. Its just an Evo sickness, I want them all, and the ones I don't have, I pine for. I miss my blue IX badly. Wait, weren't we talking about raw cars? Somebody pinch me and wake me up.

Noize

iTrader: (24)

I don't totally agree with this. The way to really put it into better comparison is to look at similar cars where there is a "raw" version available. There is no more apt comparison than a 2001 Integra GSR vs. a 2001 Integra Type R. To me, the R is a much more raw car.

The ITR at first had no radio, it was lighter, it had a ton of sound deadening removed, it only had single runner intake, it revved deeper, had higher compression, better brakes, etc.

In Mitsubishi-land and direct comparison, an RS is clearly more raw than a GSR, but not to the extent an ITR is over an Integra GSR.

When you compare different chassis, it gets blurry like what Robevo said, because what seems more "raw" to one person might be less to another. Its subjective.

In my mind, though, any racecar special that pulls out creature comforts to increase performance and thus create a more favorable power:weight ratio is certainly pursuing rawness, ie: removing unnecessary bits for racing.

GST Motorsports

iTrader: (8)

The evo 10 is *all* hard plastic, dash, top of door panels, etc.

ct9a has "touchable" soft rubberized parts on dash, doors, etc. Even the "harder" plastics have a slight non-brittle feel to them that the 10 does not. The Evo 10 glove box in itself feels like a plastic after thought "oh crap we forgot the glovebox" compared to the ct9a.

I own both (RA and Evo 8) and anybody that thinks that the Evo 10 has better *materials* in the interior must be coming from a life of driving a base cavalier and has never owned a ct9a.

- Bryan

twistyking

In the context of "raw" vs "refined" that was initially posted, the differences would be defined by the driving experiences of both vehicles. With fully stock or near stock vehicles, there is an extremely noticeable difference between the 2 platforms. I doubt anyone who is a driving enthusiast wouldn't agree that a X is more refined than a VIII/IX.

To define the "rawness" of the earlier model is easy. It rode harsher, the turbo lag meant it seemed to "feel" faster, the quicker steering reacted well... quicker and the noise/vibration/harshness level was in line with the earlier Lancer platforms. Because of those characteristics, the earlier models seemed more "wild" and uncompromising even if the performance figures didn't indicate any performance advantage.

I had test driven many VIII's and IX's before trying out a X one day. I was shocked at how much more composed the X was in all departments. All transitions are smoother. The car is quieter on the open road, it rides less harsh. Some would go so far to call it progress. However with some sports car enthusiasts, that rawness can be construed as a virtue and smoothness a liability. A gokart sure is fun and "raw" but I'll take my X over one on a road course or my daily commute.

atxMR

So by your logic the Honda Insight (1878 lbs) provides a driving experience that would be considered more raw than either Integra GSR (2672 lbs)or Integra Type R (2579 lbs). Get my point yet? In and of itself the 93 lb weight difference of the two Integras does not give the car feedback to make you more connected with the car and what it's doing. rather, it's the improvements such as better brakes, intake system, ignition management, rim/tire combo, improved rotating assembly.

Noize

iTrader: (24)

You took the point of what I said and completely ignored it. The direct weight comparison was for the same chassis when everything else was similar before modification. In the point of comparing oranges to oranges, it is valid. Tangerines aren't and shouldn't be a part of the discussion. We are car guys.

targa ten

Raw.....the feeling you get when your GF smokes you in her X.....in auto mode!

atxMR

/facepalm

Let me make it a little more simple for you. Take your ashtray out of your car and tell me how much more feedback you get from the driving experience. Lighter does not equal raw...

Robevo RS

iTrader: (16)

well, i had VI i drove many times IV. then i came to the US so i skipped a 7, But then i had an 8SSL then i got a IX RS now i have a X GSR. All modell was in my property over a year and many of thousends of miles.
What was what you saying with that?
Rob

Noize

iTrader: (24)

Combining with the IX v X thread.

GST Motorsports

iTrader: (8)

That you are blinded by your current ownership. It's not a debate that the Evo 10 *materials* are much cheaper then the ct9a in every way.

If you chose to debate it you are blinded by your current ownership.

I own both so I get to see both sides almost daily, I get to stroke the nice touchable dash and rest my soft elbows on the lovely touchable door panels in my ct9a during the morning, in the afternoon I am imprisoned by the hard plastics on every single surface in my RA, this is the greatness of having a daily unbiased relationship with both.

- Bryan

compscibOi

iTrader: (19)

Raw.

Evo IX vs Evo X...


Evo IX... no creature comforts, no NAVIGATION... (really?) I didn't buy the Evo to take road trips on... I know where I'm going and don't need some car to tell me where to go..
Evo IX... last tried and true 4G63. Period.
Evo IX... no fancy schmancy radio... I'd rather listen to the exhaust, intake and the diverter valve, than some hooped up sound system...
Evo IX... less weight... purpose built for the track, rally or drag racing.
Evo IX... less parts on the body made of plastic...
Evo IX... no AYC... active yaw control actually slows the car down to maintain grip. You can't just get in it and drive it for what it's worth... the car is actually making adjustments for the driver. This isn't RAW.


Evo X is a great car, I just don't see where it meets the RAW feel of a purpose and streamlined Evo IX...

The Evo X has things in it that provide "comforts". I didn't buy my Evo to be comfortable. I drove it to be one with the car and for the performance. I've driven both and prefer the VIII IX over the X...


/rant

Robevo RS

iTrader: (16)

if i answere to this, i would rather go to the Evo X vs IX thread ... LOL
But a same time this is answered already there.

Robevo RS

iTrader: (16)

so how you compere your great points to the X RS then ? LOL
Besides no Evo ever was purposley build in the factory for drag in mind period.
Also how you feel about bligs on the SSL with leather - sunroof , or the MR se with an extra red stiches etc... ? LOL

this thread is ruined...