kozmic27

This runs the risk of being a thread hijack....but I definitely am also wanting to know this technique you speak of. I have tried doing a "brake torque" similar to how old school slush boxes with high stalls used to be launched, and my car definitely did not like it. I have had success with launch control when used correctly, and it does get the car moving in a big hurry.

wtz

Could the sst box be controlled by an aftermarket sequential shift computer such as Pectel or Motec if one were using a Pectel or Motec ECU? If so, anyone know the pinouts to wire this?

kijima

"Brake Torque" as you describe it is indeed the way to do it, although you need to be very gentle and use some finesse, this seems to be the issue most people have with this technique. Heavy handed rock apes need not bother reading any further, but for those that have some connection to their car, that wear appropriate footwear, and have some idea of what you are trying to achieve, then you'll benefit from this.

While stationary simply hold the brake firm and 'lightly lightly' touch the accelerator and hold it very very softly. If you turn your radio off and you are in a very quiet area you will hear the car going from a neutral state to an engaged state, with all the noises that happen in between, this where the latency is. For the SS-T to engage 1st gear it needs to have all its ducks lined up in a row and a part of that is fluid pressure and that all takes time, signals are sent and there are a lot of things that happen when you mash your foot on the accelerator. We might be only talking .5 to 1 full second here in latency, but that makes up for a big difference on the get go.

From gear to gear once the input shafts are doing there thing, firing from gear to gear there is little doubt the changes are fast, we all know that. It's the latency going from a neutral state to an engaged state that’s the issue. Basically, if you drive the car like an auto with your feet then it's a driver issue, not a mechanical one period. Deal with it!

The catch is for the big hairy chested rock apes that will try this and get on the accelerator pedal to much, they will get the cool down message and rightly so too, that’s your punishment for being a heavy handed philistine.

All you are trying to achieve while the car is stationary is get first gear engaged and ready to go. Its the same principal you would employ with a normal hydraulic pull type gearbox, you would sit at the lights, engage your clutch, select first gear, release clutch to just before the 'take' point and balance the car very lightly on the accelerator. Light go green, away you go. With a manual, you would hardly have the thing in neutral and then clutch in, select gear and then go would you? Why do the same with the SS-T because that’s what you are asking it to do.

The SS-T is a manual gearbox, albeit two inputs shafts instead of one, so treat it like one. You need to drive it like a manual and I'm not talking about either using paddles or not, that’s another issue altogether. If you drive it like an auto then you are just a pedal stomper and the whole idea is lost on you, but if you want to get the best out of it, exploit it and utilize it as a manual.

On the Motec front, they have not been able to successfully get an M800 to work with the Evo X unless you are talking the RS model which is a manual only proposition, does not have ABS, ASC and a heap of other components that complicate things. The biggest part of all of it is getting into ETACS and being able not only to read but to write to it. THAT would be something realy special.

gunzo

iTrader: (2)

Ooh .. I really wouldn't do that unless you want to wear out your clutches pronto !!

You are right about the latency but getting off the line quick has many ways ..

The clutchese engages and disengages at stop/standstill based on your brake pedal input .. brake on = disengaged .. brake off = engaged ..

And very rightly of you to say its a manual .. because whoever programmed the gearbox made it behave like a normal auto .. causing alot of undue wear on the clutches during high power move off.. and even creeping you're somewhat slipping the clutches

kijima

There is slip in any clutch mechanism, that’s the whole idea of a clutch, slip isn’t a bad word gunzo it's just to what level is an acceptable amount, so don't confuse anyone reading this thinking any slip is bad. On the contrary some slip is good, you need 'some' slip otherwise you would be putting undue strain on other parts let alone having a very uncomfortable drive.

Some slip is needed and acceptable, large amounts of slip are not. What I am suggesting would not be putting huge strain on the box with a very light application of the accelerator pedal.


Also, gunzo it's not just brake on/off for clutch engagement but you already know that.

gunzo

iTrader: (2)

NOT when you're preloading it with application of the accelerator pedal .. slip is NEVER good .. it is only good for comfort and any form of normality .. slip = loss = heat = wear and tear .. simple .. just think manual clutches ..

Of couse unless you're saying preloading the clutches is an acceptable level of slip ..

Condition for disengagement IS brake on/off at standstill (speed less than 20kmh) ..OR deceleration rates greater than 0x28 (I have no idea what that is yet) unless there is another string in the subroutine I missed .. .. ok of course you got to be in gear n the 1st place

jrsimon27

iTrader: (1)

if using launch control is the best way to get going faster how come on this video they did it from a standstill and using launch control and they got a faster time froma standstill please explain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK4pL4TyFG0

kijima

Gunzo, I think you are failing to see what I mean by some slip is good. Slip in clutches and differentials has been around for a long time now and good enough for races having been been won, records having been broken and people having been happy with results, and sure you are are right. the more you limit slip, the more lifespan you have, not disputing that. What I'm saying is there is a level of acceptability slippage here and if you want to remove the latency from the box, thenn drive like I mentioned.

Having done well over 50 launches with an SS-T equipped Evo with almost 200hp more than factory on the standard clutch pack without any faults, I reckon a tiny amount isn't going to hurt it, and as you've said some slippage is dialed in from factory. I wouldnt want people reading this and thinking "Oh god, my SS-T is slipping between gears, it's going to fail" and start panicking. Once again, it gets back to an 'acceptable' level of slip.

Why is it that Vechicle manufacturers worldwide do not warrant clutches on manual cars? It's because they do wear as that's the job they perform, it's in built! Sure, there is also an idiot and abuse issue to factor in, but all in all it's deemed as a wear and tear item.

Don't agree 100% with you on that front, but when you learn more you may change your veiw.

verkion

...LOL. That's kinda funny considering gunzo has probably dissected more of the ECU than ummm...well, anyone minus Mitsu engineers.

Anyways, gunzo to your point about deceleration greater than 0x28...gotta be another routine there cause I never feel it disengage in S or SS modes, only in normal and only at a certain brake pressure and decel rate depending on which gear. It also feels like it time (as in how long the brakes have been applied for) also plays a role. But, empirically, its really hard to repeatedly replicate the disengagement of the clutch on braking. I tried between every stop light coming home from work (and going to work), for a couple days to see if I could figure it out. LOL. Better off looking at the code I would guess

verkion

kijima

verkion, don't think for one second I don't know or appreciate what Gunzo has done thus far. I think he has achieved or perhaps understood better than most what the SS-T is all about and some of it's functions. That said there are people out there that aren't vocal on forums that have been involved with these cars in many ways, not everything revolves around forums you know, remember that.

All I can base what I know about it is from being involved in builds like this:

gunzo

iTrader: (2)

That is precisely my point .. and I understand what you're implying .. not everyone has a race budget .. and not everyone is into R&D .. so your suggestion is NOT GOOD to the general masses .. you agree it does accelerate wear and tear no ??

The SST slips under high load high rpm conditions .. is that good ??
I believe to you an acceptable level of wear is a valid tradeoff for the performance you want .. they do come at a price .. and not every wants to pay that price ..


Precisely.. if you know more .. then you should educate me and not tell me I should learn more and change my view because I'm a hardhead ..

kijima

If I'm ever your way we need to catch up for a beer and have a chat.

I'd still stand by my claims on the road car that some slip is acceptable, too much is not however.

Replacing a clutch disc on an Evo IX is a very common occurrence and you need to factor in a replacement dependant on how you drive the car. Increase the clamp load on your pressure plate and you will generally get more life out of the OEM clutch disc, simply put less slip which supports what you are saying, however there still is some slip there and it's an 'acceptable' amount.

Be under no illusions, while we build the cars that win the big races in production car championships etc... We also build cars for the bloke with a much smaller budget, both Circuit Racing and Tarmac Rally alike. We also have a road car program and have built cars before for Mitsubishi that fall into line with full factory backed warranty. In fact we are a secondary manufacturer to Mitsubishi.



Yes, I agree it's wear and tear, (Ha-ha, that’s the hardhead Richard asking that question! ) but then I'm also wearing out the tyres when I drive the car to work too, on that basis should I stop driving to work as my Tyres are expensive and I am wearing them out? Some wear is acceptable, too much is not.

gunzo

iTrader: (2)

Controlled wear .. leave the option the people then

I'm going Melbourne tonight .. anywhere near your neighborhood so we can get that beer ?? PM me if you are .. Tephra's there I think

kijima

You are kidding? Are you still here? Yes, Tephra is here as well, he is only a 10 drive from where I am located. Please tell me you are still here.

Hakmeister

iTrader: (2)

what the hell happened to this thread.