d15b7

hi fellas!

i can add a little insight to this discussion; i am an "east coaster", and currently race a H1 Honda Civic, and a PS-1 Ford Probe GT (now classed a PT-D car). over the winter, i began converting the Probe to a USTCC car. i was in contact with the officials and we built a VSS for the Probe. also, i should add, my everyday car is a 2003 EVO. i drive it 1000 to 1500 miles per month, plus i usually take it 2 to 4 track days per year for "exercise" when i am instructing for the PCA (the rest of the year, maybe 8 to 10 weekends, i will run either the Probe or the H1 car). gotta take the EVO out once in a while to let it stretch out a bit! so, i know how a mostly stock EVO runs compared to a fully prepped H1 car and a mildly prepped PS or PTx car....

when talk began about EVOs that were going to be running in USTCC, i knew there would be some major adjustments that would be needed on the EVO, for the following reasons:

1. alot of the cars that are out there in USTCC start off life with low output motors. ford focus, chevy cavalier, vw jetta, bmw 318, mini cooper, saturn, etc. even my probe, which is a 2.5 liter V6, is only 164 fly hp. the lower hp cars are allowed alot of mods (cams, headwork, ecus, etc), but still, even with all that done, alot of cars will be very lucky to see 200-210 fly hp. and they will be ending up with peaky motors, without much torque, and possibly questionable reliablility.
2. most of those cars can only get down to a certain weight; my min weight for the Probe is 2400 with driver; i am fairly certain at this point that i can't get down to that weight, even by stripping to the bone, replacing all glass with Lexan, and putting on a bunch of expensive CF body parts. i think i can make 2500 lbs, but much lower than that is not probably possible for me (i myself weigh 172 lbs).
3. even with my 2.5 liter motor, and with the allowances they give me for tuning, i don't think i will get more than 210-220 fly hp out of it, while retaining reliability and good powerband characteristics.
4. now lets look at the EVO -- even just totally stock motor with cat removed and a freeflow exhaust and a K&N drop in filter, i'd bet that the motor is going to make 300+ flywheel hp. maybe a bit more even. and loads of useable torque with an awesome powerband. and super totally reliable. so, we are looking, just engine wise, at a car that is making 50% more power than many many of the cars it is competing against. that means, for an equitable power to weight ratio, it is going to have to weigh 50% more than those lower power cars. so, the 2500 lb car at 200 hp is going to equate roughly to a 3700 lb car at 300 hp, just considering power to weight.
5. that doesn't even take into account the much better chassis that the EVO starts with (very stiff, and much of the engineering design was done with motorsports in mind). compare that to the chassis of a cavalier, or jetta, or focus.
6. EVO starts off with an incredible braking system, and good aero that provides actual benefits at high speeds. very good suspension design and geometry.
7. perhaps most importantly, EVO starts off with AWD; an incredible AWD system that is going to allow power to be put down everywhere; especially when compared to a FWD car, and still quite superior to a RWD car. and if it is raining, or otherwise slippery track conditions, forget it; AWD car will have such an advantage it is incredible.

so, for the above reasons, that is why they are putting so much weight on the EVO (and some added weight to the others, such as subaru); they have to do something to even up the cars, or drivers/teams with the other cars will go elsewhere to race, and there will remain only a couple of EVOs/Subarus out there competing. nobody wants to go racing and know that they don't have a chance to run with the top cars.

i see it that only two things could have been done -- 1. add weight to the powerful AWD turbo cars. 2. break up the USTCC into a "faster" and "slower" classes; problem is, they don't have enough cars, i think, to do that right now. so, #1 appears to be the way they are going.

oh, one more thing -- i think that the EVO will still run up there even with the added weight. its that good of a car! when i drive my almost all stock EVO on the track, i am continuously amazed at how easy it is to drive and how fast it goes; running the EVO on the Advans and stock pads, it was turning faster times than my PS-1 Probe on R comps, with little to no drama. last year, it rained one of the days i had the EVO at the track, and that was the most incredible track session ever; first time i ever drove a AWD on the track in the rain; i was driving around EVERYONE in the instructor group like they were on cool down laps! it is an incredible car!

todd

Ludikraut

iTrader: (17)

^ Hey, sorry to go OT, but I thought you could get the JDM spec V6 for the probe, which, IIRC makes ~200 flywheel hp? (same engine that can go into the MX-6 and MX-3)

l8r)

d15b7

hi!

the JDM motor will fit into the probe; i think it makes 190 to 200 fly hp. its got 10:1 compression, slightly warmer cams, and a freer flowing intake manifold. it makes its extra power all high up in the powerband, and sacrifices a bit of the low end of the USDM motor. it also has a less reliable valvetrain (springs and retainers).

regardless, the most power i've ever heard of coming out of a "built up" KL series NA motor (that wasn't a drag only hand grenade) was in the neighborhood of 200-210 whp on a dynojet. that is super stout for a stock block KL NA roadrace motor, and it had all the tricks done to it. mine, in my current road race probe, with hotshot headers, straight pipe exhaust, iceman cold air intake, caprice HEI-MSD Blaster ignition made mid 160's whp on a Dynojet dyno, mid to high 160's tq. with some serious $$$ spent on custom cams and head porting/flow benching, and a custom tuned ecu, i think 190's to MAYBE 200 whp would be possible. maybe. mine runs so nice right now, i think i will leave the motor alone, and concentrate on getting the weight down as close to the min 2400lbs as possible (last year in PS-1 i was weighing in at 2860lbs!).

i took it to Cecil County Dragway last year just for fun; some of my pals were going, and the car was already in the trailer, so i figured "why not". it turned a 15.1 at 95 mph. i was pretty happy with that, but it certainly is no EVO in the acceleration department!!!!!

todd

PS for reference, my H1 honda civic is powered by a K20A2 RSX-S motor, bone stock with the exception of JDM Type R oem cams, a header, a cold air intake, and a hondata ecu. it put down 204 whp on the dynojet. the K motors are GREAT motors; i am 99% sure that my Probe will never make HP numbers like that, even with 25% more cubes to start with...