Originally Posted by chronohunter

They are only to be used as a last resort at the track when all other (grip increasing) solutions have been exhausted

Originally Posted by chronohunter

Thanks for the explanation Kyle Looking at the Video I don't see a ton of rotation post apex more neutrality, He did have a lovely (but too big) slide of the triple Apex left. That actually slowed the car considerably (but I'm sure induced a large in helmet grin). I can do that in my car but I prefer to stay "scrub free" on the exit, something that I like to call "Zero Steer" which has the car in a very tidy four-wheel-drift off the corner with, as the name implies, the driver has no steering input in the car, it's just naturally turning because the rear is slipping just a tick more than the front which provides all the steering required. Of course the car is at full throttle through this phase.

It is all set-up as previous posters have accurately stated it's the careful application of trailbraking on the entry that sets this all up (mess that up and it simply won't work), there must be enough energy to rotate the car and point it at the apex for the Zero Steer phase can start.

Now from the cars stand point to rotate on the power regardless of the drivers skill set you are simply looking to get power to the outside wheels which means diffs that lock on acceleration. The outside loaded tire will have more grip and upon power delivery will rotate the car for you. That is assuming that the car has sufficient balance that is doesn't push. That is helped but many of the things Greg from GSC was suggesting. Just don't put more than a 1.5way in the rear or a 1way in the front of an EVO on tarmac (torsen is ok in the front as long as it has minimal to no decell locking) or you will increase entry understeer to a point that the car will have to be over slowed on turn-in just to get it into the corner (not that Greg even suggested that, just that most people think if a little is good then more must be better!).

The "other" cheesy cheap way to do it is to de-grip the rear, as many of you that recall the infamous trail braking thread, I am very much against this preferring to add front grip to balance the car (yes it is harder but well worth the effort). These "cheesy solutions" include very little rear camber, high rear pressures and rear toe out. They are only to be used as a last resort at the track when all other (grip increasing) solutions have been exhausted

Remember a truly fast corner from turn-in to exit is, above all, a combination of a well balanced car and a driver that understands what the car needs at any given point and is capable of supplying that "thing" at the right moment. The thing we all want to avoid is to set our cars up super loose so we don't have to learn to turn it ourselves. This is a very dangerous combination, think about it, an unskilled (usually stubborn yet unskilled) driver in a loose car. That is where I took odds with may other suspension "tuners" on the forum, I insist we all learn to drive our cars not try to work around that with dangerous set-ups.

off soap box!
hope this was worth reading!

Originally Posted by Bimmubishi

Scorke, what the hell are you talking about? The cage had just passed SCCA tech that morning. There is complete coverage with FIA padding on every potential contact area.

Then there's kingKyle on his website videos with no cage and no gloves laughing.. classic.

Sorry about the view of the diagonal. I didn't realize the camera angle was so bad. That wasn't the point anyway but leave it to you wise asses..

(smiley face)

Originally Posted by Percywork

Great post Paul, thanks for the lucidity.
I am glad that my suspension tuner (Muellerized) set up my car to be exceedingly neutral last year. There is a very good balance of grip front to rear, and I did have to work on my skill as a driver, ie, trailbraking, unloading the rear, etc, to drive the car well, and safely within my limits and ability. I think it was the best for my development, and I got much faster throuout the season. As a result, I'll be working with the suspension tuner to create a HAIR less grip in the rear over the winter due to the fact that my skills have increased, not a crazy loose car, but one that will rotate just a bit easier...this stuff is alike a Black Art to those of us that are not so technically minded, so, I for one appreitae posts like this that create a "mind-picture" as to how the suspension dynamics work...

Originally Posted by nils

like custom matched springs & valved shocks for each individual track? what else?

n

Originally Posted by chronohunter

hey Niles first off nice job at the TA

Originally Posted by chronohunter

We don't do a ton of spring changes mainly click settings and as you know usually due to varying grip levels. If the grip is the same from one track to the next even if the tracks have a vastly different layouts you wont change much because weight transfer is just proportional to grip. We will fiddle with alignment and click settings as well as aero to dial in a particular track.

Originally Posted by Galant VR-4 #34

Good points Kyle. As you pointed out we are very limited in what we can do to the car in T2. -2 degrees of camber front and rear, no sway bar upgrade, we are on stock springs. Therefor we are trying to get the car to do things it was not designed to do by getting creative with what is allowed. For example, cranking up the compression of the struts to make up for the soft spring rates. The Subarus are just better at this game than anyone else out there. Paul I have tried all the cheesy fixes you have mentioned put less camber in the rear, overinflated the rear tires, added a touch of toe out in the rear and over tightened the rear struts. I am a big fan of trail braking but it only helps so much. Keep in mind the evo gets its *** kicked mid corner as well, Im driving my butt off and the M3 just reels me in, the longer the corner, the worse it is for the Evo. BTW Roebling Road is a horrible Evo track. Am I complaining? not at all, I was able to finish 4th in the NE region (the toughest region in T2 Nationals) on a bone stock suspension. I agree with the guy that says its easy to say the car handles great at 9/10ths but have a skilled driver drive it at 10/10ths while racing better handling cars and see if you are as happy with the handling. I had this old instructor once tell me to try to do as much steering with your feet as possible ( or something to that affect). I try to use as little steering input as necessary and that is how I teach as well. BTW, this is great to see people trying to figure out how we can make the Evo more competitive in T2 form !! All Ideas are greatly appreciated

Marty
#34
T2 Evo

Originally Posted by Bimmubishi

Camber is your worst enemy in that T2 car as mentioned. That and it's not fair to compare the handling characteristics of a full interior Evo, with a full cage to that of a 2400lb car. (Audi)