Street Touring: You need to read August Fastrack
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More interpretation:
Possible scenario:
Regarding HFCs:
So, according to Hollis' interpretation, if your HFC doesn't have an EPA mandated compliance sticker, you are illegal, regardless of whether it throws a CEL or not.
Do any of the HFCs produced for the Evo have an EPA mandated sticker?
Jen covered most of it but since I was the one speaking with Doug and Andy about this over the weekend I'd like to re-iterate that the following is now the case:
#1. If your ECU reads OBD NOT READY for any reason you are not in compliance and will be disqualified.
#2. If you have a CEL for any OBD related reason you are not in compliance and will be disqualified.
#3. No method of defeating the cat inneficiency CEL is legal.
#4. Andy strongly agrees with this interpretation and does not see my point. He tells me that he thinks the majority of the SEB agrees.
#5. In Andy's words: "Not every car can take advantage of every rule". When I mentioned that the multiple-into-one hi-flow rule was originally for the WRX he felt that we misinterpreted that rule to allow us to be emmissions non-compliant. Interestingly enough Andy told me with a straight face that the rule allowing timing and fueling changes was to allow cars with intakes and exhausts to come back into emmissions compliance not to allow a common after-market modification used to make more power like everyone else on the planet seems to read it.
#1. If your ECU reads OBD NOT READY for any reason you are not in compliance and will be disqualified.
#2. If you have a CEL for any OBD related reason you are not in compliance and will be disqualified.
#3. No method of defeating the cat inneficiency CEL is legal.
#4. Andy strongly agrees with this interpretation and does not see my point. He tells me that he thinks the majority of the SEB agrees.
#5. In Andy's words: "Not every car can take advantage of every rule". When I mentioned that the multiple-into-one hi-flow rule was originally for the WRX he felt that we misinterpreted that rule to allow us to be emmissions non-compliant. Interestingly enough Andy told me with a straight face that the rule allowing timing and fueling changes was to allow cars with intakes and exhausts to come back into emmissions compliance not to allow a common after-market modification used to make more power like everyone else on the planet seems to read it.
Oh...While I am thinking of it, if a car passes an emission test...in their own state if applicable...why wouldn't a certificate of such be permitted as evidence of a passed emission test....I threw a CEL on my way to PERU from Florida...it was Evaporative Emission code for the gas Cap..as their is a pressure switch inside the fuel neck that went bad....but it still came up as a 'EMISSION' Code...If my car was in STX/U, according to the rule clarification, could have been protested and my times disallowed...
From Andy Hollis:
The manufacturer may not wish for you to replace cats via the aftermarket, but the EPA allows it. In fact, the EPA even allows substitution of multiple cats with single units, but only under very specific circumstances (verified application-specific sufficiency). Read that EPA link quoted in the recent Fasttrack proposal, and also do some more searching on the EPA site. You'll find a wealth of info there (I did).
Manufacturers can not *require* you to use their parts. They must allow for the aftermarket. The only carrot they have is warranty, and that's what they use for cats. But if the part is emissions legal per the EPA, its ok.
In the case of the Subaru WRX, you might want to check and see if the 3->1 units actually have correct EPA-mandated application-specific labeling on them. That will tell you whether or not they are *supposed* to work as good as OE.
The manufacturer may not wish for you to replace cats via the aftermarket, but the EPA allows it. In fact, the EPA even allows substitution of multiple cats with single units, but only under very specific circumstances (verified application-specific sufficiency). Read that EPA link quoted in the recent Fasttrack proposal, and also do some more searching on the EPA site. You'll find a wealth of info there (I did).
Manufacturers can not *require* you to use their parts. They must allow for the aftermarket. The only carrot they have is warranty, and that's what they use for cats. But if the part is emissions legal per the EPA, its ok.
In the case of the Subaru WRX, you might want to check and see if the 3->1 units actually have correct EPA-mandated application-specific labeling on them. That will tell you whether or not they are *supposed* to work as good as OE.
Do any of the HFCs produced for the Evo have an EPA mandated sticker?
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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...1309156&page=2
Jen and Phil Croy apparently broached the topic with Andy Hollis this past weekend face-to-face.
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well this certainly sucks. the way I interpret the rules (and I hope I am wrong) you are only allowed to install a cat-back exhaust in street touring unless you compete with a 20 year old car in which case, you can probably find a EPA certified replacement CAT.
I think this hits the subie folks the hardest, but there are several manufactures who use multiple CATS in the exhaust (subaru, Nissan, and I think Toyota) that would be affected as well.
I think this hits the subie folks the hardest, but there are several manufactures who use multiple CATS in the exhaust (subaru, Nissan, and I think Toyota) that would be affected as well.
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well this certainly sucks. the way I interpret the rules (and I hope I am wrong) you are only allowed to install a cat-back exhaust in street touring unless you compete with a 20 year old car in which case, you can probably find a EPA certified replacement CAT.
I think this hits the subie folks the hardest, but there are several manufactures who use multiple CATS in the exhaust (subaru, Nissan, and I think Toyota) that would be affected as well.
I think this hits the subie folks the hardest, but there are several manufactures who use multiple CATS in the exhaust (subaru, Nissan, and I think Toyota) that would be affected as well.
I agree the Subie folks will get hit the hardest. All WRXs will have to install all 3 cats ... that means they can only do header and catback. All STis will have to have stock downpipe and stock main cat. Which limits them to header and catback mod ...
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Well one could still do the header, O2 housing, downpipe and catback on the car. The cat would have to stay stock ... Sucks! Because I just built a custom TBE with V-band clamps and a Random Tech HFC ... sigh ...
I agree the Subie folks will get hit the hardest. All WRXs will have to install all 3 cats ... that means they can only do header and catback. All STis will have to have stock downpipe and stock main cat. Which limits them to header and catback mod ...
I agree the Subie folks will get hit the hardest. All WRXs will have to install all 3 cats ... that means they can only do header and catback. All STis will have to have stock downpipe and stock main cat. Which limits them to header and catback mod ...
no technically you can't change anything in front of the CAT to maintain an emissions legal configuration according to (I think) the FED. As far as I am aware, exhaust component in front of the CAT is considered part of the factory emissions equipment.
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wow, after reading SCCA forums and then nasioc, I'm exhausted, this stuff is enough to make your head spin. I did read one interesting point regarding "nowhere in the rules does it say we have to follow EPA guidelines, only US DOT guidelines." I think this will be the one thing that keeps everyone legal for this year, for the most part.
The more I think about it, the more I think that the easy solution would be to take out the provision to require Street Touring to be street legal. Then you can allow modifications as intended in the ruleset without this mind numbing debate. Of course that will make ST SP-light to a lot of people's displeasure but really isn't that what it already is?
The more I think about it, the more I think that the easy solution would be to take out the provision to require Street Touring to be street legal. Then you can allow modifications as intended in the ruleset without this mind numbing debate. Of course that will make ST SP-light to a lot of people's displeasure but really isn't that what it already is?
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The more I think about it, the more I think that the easy solution would be to take out the provision to require Street Touring to be street legal. Then you can allow modifications as intended in the ruleset without this mind numbing debate. Of course that will make ST SP-light to a lot of people's displeasure but really isn't that what it already is?
Last time I checked, the purpose of the class was to allow "common" tuner-car modifications, which it does. What the current faux pas seems to ignore is that most of these modifications are, indeed, not emissions legal to begin with. And just to be clear, there's absolutely no need for the SCCA to police emissions on "race" cars at any SCCA-sanctioned event.
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Terry Fair (BMW driver) ain't to happy about this...
I printed the PDF of the FastTrack but quickly shredded it, ground it to a pulp, then burned it to ash. I finished the first draft of my letter to the SEB but I used the "F" word more than 37 times, so I think it needs a rewrite. Smile
This latest "clarification" (de facto rule change) finally effects the majority of the STU class... the turbo boys. Well look at the sh!tstorm that has caused! Stick out tongue The Strut brace debacle was bad enough, and quickly un-clarified, and this new "emissions" interpretation needs to be dealt the same swift fate. I've been bemoaning TAKEBACKS for over 2 years but now that they are finally starting hurting the turbo cars I think we can come to a consensus. Turbo and Non-Turbo STU drivers... UNITE! NO MORE TAKEBACKS!
We have to put a stop to this. Someone on the STAC or SEB obviously has an agenda, and that is to make ST more neutered than ever before - "reign it in" to become nothing more than STOCK with SPRINGS. This is only the beginning, folks - who knows what's next?? Throw a CEL from a loose gas cap and YOUR GONE! Remove a fog light (even when you can replace the whole freagin bumper cover?!) and YOUR OUTTA HERE! Roll that fender more than some arbitrary amount and you are ILLEGAL! Tweak some ECM parameter than might effect some obscure emissions function .001% of the time and BUH BYE!
The SEB has gone too far this time. Is there a published list of the SEB members? Is there a way to have any or all of them removed from this board? This clarification/re-writing of rules has got to stop.
To Mark SNIPE - why don't you do everyone a favor and keep your personal attacks to a minimum? If you cannot debate a topic on its merits alone you shouldn't post at all - your "Strawman" tactics are getting stale. Thanks.
This latest "clarification" (de facto rule change) finally effects the majority of the STU class... the turbo boys. Well look at the sh!tstorm that has caused! Stick out tongue The Strut brace debacle was bad enough, and quickly un-clarified, and this new "emissions" interpretation needs to be dealt the same swift fate. I've been bemoaning TAKEBACKS for over 2 years but now that they are finally starting hurting the turbo cars I think we can come to a consensus. Turbo and Non-Turbo STU drivers... UNITE! NO MORE TAKEBACKS!
We have to put a stop to this. Someone on the STAC or SEB obviously has an agenda, and that is to make ST more neutered than ever before - "reign it in" to become nothing more than STOCK with SPRINGS. This is only the beginning, folks - who knows what's next?? Throw a CEL from a loose gas cap and YOUR GONE! Remove a fog light (even when you can replace the whole freagin bumper cover?!) and YOUR OUTTA HERE! Roll that fender more than some arbitrary amount and you are ILLEGAL! Tweak some ECM parameter than might effect some obscure emissions function .001% of the time and BUH BYE!
The SEB has gone too far this time. Is there a published list of the SEB members? Is there a way to have any or all of them removed from this board? This clarification/re-writing of rules has got to stop.
To Mark SNIPE - why don't you do everyone a favor and keep your personal attacks to a minimum? If you cannot debate a topic on its merits alone you shouldn't post at all - your "Strawman" tactics are getting stale. Thanks.
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I think EPA and DOT standards for emissions vary. DOT isn't as strict as the EPA. Just after I think I'm done modding my car, this new series of enforcements ensue. My question to the SCCA is why the EF did they allow people to use HFCs when it wasn't within the original intent of the rules for the past few years?!?! Regardless of whether it was a Nationally sactioned class or not ....
And who recently decided to enact upon a certain clause written in the rules?
Ironic, I just spent a small fortune (for me) building a custom 3" TBE and got rid of the stock cat, thinking I would never need it. Wow ... so now if this is seriously enforced, I guess I need to sell my exhaust for a fraction of what I paid, find a stock cat some how, get a catback, perhaps a new downpipe if it is allowed, perhaps keep the modded manifold and O2 housing and finally a new ECU tune for a catback.
Or I could not give a crap about the SCCA anymore and just run what I brung and let the weenies protest the crap outta me .... I'm almost certain to do the latter because I'm not going to place high anyways. I've decided to only do next weeks regional event with my car as is, and not even bother to sign up for the NATs. Infact it seems my participation in the SCCA will be waning after this ...
And who recently decided to enact upon a certain clause written in the rules?
Ironic, I just spent a small fortune (for me) building a custom 3" TBE and got rid of the stock cat, thinking I would never need it. Wow ... so now if this is seriously enforced, I guess I need to sell my exhaust for a fraction of what I paid, find a stock cat some how, get a catback, perhaps a new downpipe if it is allowed, perhaps keep the modded manifold and O2 housing and finally a new ECU tune for a catback.
Or I could not give a crap about the SCCA anymore and just run what I brung and let the weenies protest the crap outta me .... I'm almost certain to do the latter because I'm not going to place high anyways. I've decided to only do next weeks regional event with my car as is, and not even bother to sign up for the NATs. Infact it seems my participation in the SCCA will be waning after this ...
Last edited by DaWorstPlaya; Jul 26, 2007 at 07:13 AM. Reason: spelling
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This renders the reference to "DOT emissions standards" as a self-contradictory statement as it stands right now in the rulebook.
One could easily argue that no such standards exist (true), though the SCCA could issue yet another clarification that the intention was for that to say EPA, not DOT.
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At one of the first Tours after STU started, Doug G. asked me to start the car and he checked for a CEL. (Nice guy BTW)
I understand people going to Nats aren't worried about a "weenie" protest. What some need to be concerned about is the whole class being scanned, and then possibly being DSQed. Just like some classes are asked to jack up the car in impound to check for illegal fender liner holes, brake shields, etc.
I've cleared a couple of Evo's ECUs after throwing a light, caused by stalling from a spin - and they were in A Stock.
I understand people going to Nats aren't worried about a "weenie" protest. What some need to be concerned about is the whole class being scanned, and then possibly being DSQed. Just like some classes are asked to jack up the car in impound to check for illegal fender liner holes, brake shields, etc.
I've cleared a couple of Evo's ECUs after throwing a light, caused by stalling from a spin - and they were in A Stock.
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I hear ya brother! Don't cancel out on going to Nats though. Just bring that same could-give-a-**** attitude, as I will, and just have fun. In the end of the day, we will all know what our times are and know who truly won regardless of any protest BS so that's all that really matters.
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At one of the first Tours after STU started, Doug G. asked me to start the car and he checked for a CEL. (Nice guy BTW)
I understand people going to Nats aren't worried about a "weenie" protest. What some need to be concerned about is the whole class being scanned, and then possibly being DSQed. Just like some classes are asked to jack up the car in impound to check for illegal fender liner holes, brake shields, etc.
I've cleared a couple of Evo's ECUs after throwing a light, caused by stalling from a spin - and they were in A Stock.
I understand people going to Nats aren't worried about a "weenie" protest. What some need to be concerned about is the whole class being scanned, and then possibly being DSQed. Just like some classes are asked to jack up the car in impound to check for illegal fender liner holes, brake shields, etc.
I've cleared a couple of Evo's ECUs after throwing a light, caused by stalling from a spin - and they were in A Stock.
When you view this issue as a requirement NOT to have any CEL during or immediately after your runs, it transforms this issue into one with much broader ramifications.
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Feb 18, 2004 05:49 AM