Decent track suspension..?
Jan 2, 2008 | 11:22 AM
#16
Here's another question: You guys prefer neutral, under, or over steer? I've only raced cars with over-steer(Porsches), and that's all I know. I've instructed in cars with understeer, and in cars that were pretty neutral. I know I don't like understeer, am pretty adept at steering with the back end, but have found the (mine at least) Evo to be pretty neutral-at least on the street. You guys that have driven on the track, what have you set up you car for? Knowing what I do, I was gonna tell Mueller to make the car balanced, but if it's gonna error, have it oversteer.
At first, my car felt like it was fairly neutral, with a slight oversteer. In time, naturally, i have acquired more experience. Now, i feel that my car understeers. I have grown to realize that i want more oversteer than what my current setup allows for. John has maximized my setup within what he considers is the most he is willing to do with the stock suspension. Beyond that, i will need coilovers. Once i get coilovers, given the decent amount of experience i have with my current setup, i will know right away how much of a difference they will make.
Jan 2, 2008 | 12:31 PM
#17
My thoughts:
Penske - Undeniably awesome, and expensive. Overkill unless you are actually competing. Also track only unless you like to throw money at things for the fun of it.
Moton - see above, but the Moton Clubsports are streetable. Just plain awesome but expensive. Please don't street the motorsport level Motons.
Ohlins Flags - Great 2 way. Sort of in between hardcore competition set-ups and the easier to use street stuff. Definitely streetable and competition worthy at the same time. Cheaper then the above, and only slightly less awesome. Come with camber plates and rear mounts. Easier to set-up then the above. We will be using these ourselves for an STU car next season.
Ohlins Sportlines - Great 1 way, easy to use, not much to screw up here. Good valving, great performance and ride quality. Put them on, align, corner balance and have fun. They come with everything you need, including camber plates and rear tops. I really like these for someone who doesn't want to worry about their suspension too much and just wants some thing easy to use out of the box. Our 2nd most popular choice, just barely.
Koni - Their motorsports stuff is pretty darn good, but I don't have much experience with it....check with zzyzx motorsports. He has some streetable and motorsports level Koni solutions.
Bilstein - PSS9's are pretty good, but on the soft side. Revalvable to be more aggressive, but that makes things more complicated. Do not come with top mounts.
KW - Very good inexpensive 2 way. Streetable, great on the track, lots of adjustments to play around with. Very hard to beat performance per dollar. Robispec uses these and so do we. Our most popular coilover. And lots of happy BMW and Porsche guys use these. Do not come with top mounts.
JIC - No personal experience. So I won't say anything. I have opinions from watching other people use them, I'll just keep them to myself.
Cusco - Best I've seen from Japan. Yes they use Showa dampers which is a good thing. Really sucks they aren't rebuildable in the US though. Still short on travel like most Japanese stuff, but not as bad. Come with top mounts.
Everything else - Just be careful.
A lot of stuff from China and Taiwan have really crappy and inconsistent valving, lots of shock fade from low fulid capacity and poor cooling, and poor quality springs.
Japanese stuff usually has consistent valving, it's just usually not very good. Generally short on travel and have too much high speed compression damping. Probably a product of being valved for super smooth Japanese roads and circuits.
The farnorthracing link is OKAY.....just don't take it as gospel. For the most part it's pretty good.
- Andrew
Penske - Undeniably awesome, and expensive. Overkill unless you are actually competing. Also track only unless you like to throw money at things for the fun of it.
Moton - see above, but the Moton Clubsports are streetable. Just plain awesome but expensive. Please don't street the motorsport level Motons.
Ohlins Flags - Great 2 way. Sort of in between hardcore competition set-ups and the easier to use street stuff. Definitely streetable and competition worthy at the same time. Cheaper then the above, and only slightly less awesome. Come with camber plates and rear mounts. Easier to set-up then the above. We will be using these ourselves for an STU car next season.
Ohlins Sportlines - Great 1 way, easy to use, not much to screw up here. Good valving, great performance and ride quality. Put them on, align, corner balance and have fun. They come with everything you need, including camber plates and rear tops. I really like these for someone who doesn't want to worry about their suspension too much and just wants some thing easy to use out of the box. Our 2nd most popular choice, just barely.
Koni - Their motorsports stuff is pretty darn good, but I don't have much experience with it....check with zzyzx motorsports. He has some streetable and motorsports level Koni solutions.
Bilstein - PSS9's are pretty good, but on the soft side. Revalvable to be more aggressive, but that makes things more complicated. Do not come with top mounts.
KW - Very good inexpensive 2 way. Streetable, great on the track, lots of adjustments to play around with. Very hard to beat performance per dollar. Robispec uses these and so do we. Our most popular coilover. And lots of happy BMW and Porsche guys use these. Do not come with top mounts.
JIC - No personal experience. So I won't say anything. I have opinions from watching other people use them, I'll just keep them to myself.
Cusco - Best I've seen from Japan. Yes they use Showa dampers which is a good thing. Really sucks they aren't rebuildable in the US though. Still short on travel like most Japanese stuff, but not as bad. Come with top mounts.
Everything else - Just be careful.
A lot of stuff from China and Taiwan have really crappy and inconsistent valving, lots of shock fade from low fulid capacity and poor cooling, and poor quality springs.
Japanese stuff usually has consistent valving, it's just usually not very good. Generally short on travel and have too much high speed compression damping. Probably a product of being valved for super smooth Japanese roads and circuits.
The farnorthracing link is OKAY.....just don't take it as gospel. For the most part it's pretty good.
- Andrew
Last edited by GTWORX.com; Jan 10, 2008 at 11:54 AM.
Jan 2, 2008 | 01:52 PM
#18
Well, info from a guy who has actually tested shocks rather than just going by the seat of the pants is pretty valuable. The zzyzx competition coilovers are on the high side of your price range, around $3500 for a set. Remember that the quality of the shocks is going to be the primary determining factor in both the price and the performance. TANSTAAFL. Even using the best shocks, you can still mess up the handling with a bad setup, but that's fixable for a fairly low cost. Even good springs are cheap. Put crap shocks on there and you'll be stuck with a crap suspension no matter how you tune it.
Here's how the theory goes on suspension setup, just so you know.
1) Figure out what natural frequency you want. Ideal is around 2.2-2.5 Hz, I think (but don't quote me). Do some research and you'll find plenty of info.
2) The natural frequency is determined by the unsprung weight and the spring rate. You can measure your unsprung weight. This will tell you the spring rate you need.
3) The ideal shock valving can be figured once you know the spring rate and unsprung weight.
There are a ton of details I'm glossing over, but that's the meat of it. Its a second-order differential equation with three constants, two of which you are free to mess with.
As far as the KWs... I didn't mention them because I haven't seen any evidence of them being a great shock, but I haven't seen any evidence of them being that bad, either. I got to take four runs in a SM-class Evo running KWs, but that wasn't enough to really form my own opinion.
ZZYZX also has a kit around $2200 with the same Konis as the more expensive one, but the coilovers are only single-height adjustable. In my opinion, they're the best bang for your buck out there if you're willing to deal with that one detail.
Here's how the theory goes on suspension setup, just so you know.
1) Figure out what natural frequency you want. Ideal is around 2.2-2.5 Hz, I think (but don't quote me). Do some research and you'll find plenty of info.
2) The natural frequency is determined by the unsprung weight and the spring rate. You can measure your unsprung weight. This will tell you the spring rate you need.
3) The ideal shock valving can be figured once you know the spring rate and unsprung weight.
There are a ton of details I'm glossing over, but that's the meat of it. Its a second-order differential equation with three constants, two of which you are free to mess with.
As far as the KWs... I didn't mention them because I haven't seen any evidence of them being a great shock, but I haven't seen any evidence of them being that bad, either. I got to take four runs in a SM-class Evo running KWs, but that wasn't enough to really form my own opinion.
ZZYZX also has a kit around $2200 with the same Konis as the more expensive one, but the coilovers are only single-height adjustable. In my opinion, they're the best bang for your buck out there if you're willing to deal with that one detail.
Last edited by GTLocke13; Jan 2, 2008 at 01:59 PM.
Jan 2, 2008 | 03:01 PM
#19
Yeah, which is why i said i didn't really disagree with DG. I really do like 95% of what he says. And he apparently backs up most of what he's said with auto-x wins, and his dyno plots do not lie.
For the most part, you're right too. The natural frequencies DG recommends might not be perfect for a track car and it depends on the tire of choice. But yeah, the quality of the damper is the most important thing to look at. You can always add Swift or Hyperco springs down the line in the rates you want and revalve, but a crappy shock is a crappy shock. A lot of the Japanese stuff is way too stiff, and I feel like with the short travel you just plain lose grip at points.
Basically, if you stick with Ohlins, Moton, Bilstein, Koni, the good stuff etc.....you're in good company. Get one of those and you won't have to worry. At that point, just work out the details and you'll be faster then 99% of other people out there since it sounds like the original poster has a good amount of driving experience.
If you're not a suspension tech junkie....there are good people to talk to that can figure it out for you. Let other people do the overthinking.
zzyzx is very intelligent and has his custom Koni set-ups. Works does Ohlins. Robi does KW and DMS. We do Ohlins and KW with the occasional Moton or Bilstein. Call places and talk for a little to get some ideas.
- Andrew
I really do like 95% of what he says. And he apparently backs up most of what he's said with auto-x wins, and his dyno plots do not lie. For the most part, you're right too. The natural frequencies DG recommends might not be perfect for a track car and it depends on the tire of choice. But yeah, the quality of the damper is the most important thing to look at. You can always add Swift or Hyperco springs down the line in the rates you want and revalve, but a crappy shock is a crappy shock. A lot of the Japanese stuff is way too stiff, and I feel like with the short travel you just plain lose grip at points.
Basically, if you stick with Ohlins, Moton, Bilstein, Koni, the good stuff etc.....you're in good company. Get one of those and you won't have to worry. At that point, just work out the details and you'll be faster then 99% of other people out there since it sounds like the original poster has a good amount of driving experience.
If you're not a suspension tech junkie....there are good people to talk to that can figure it out for you. Let other people do the overthinking.
zzyzx is very intelligent and has his custom Koni set-ups. Works does Ohlins. Robi does KW and DMS. We do Ohlins and KW with the occasional Moton or Bilstein. Call places and talk for a little to get some ideas.
- Andrew
Last edited by GTWORX.com; Jan 2, 2008 at 04:28 PM.
Jan 2, 2008 | 07:42 PM
#21
There is also the new zzyzx EM line.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ighlight=zzyzx
It uses the exact same 2 way koni insert as the competitions (and everybody else loves) but is chomoly instead of aluminum. It's WAY cheaper. If you're willing to wait 4-6 weeks, I should be able to give impressions as I think I have the first evo set.
d
EDIT: oops, I just noticed somebody mentioned these.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ighlight=zzyzx
It uses the exact same 2 way koni insert as the competitions (and everybody else loves) but is chomoly instead of aluminum. It's WAY cheaper. If you're willing to wait 4-6 weeks, I should be able to give impressions as I think I have the first evo set.
d
EDIT: oops, I just noticed somebody mentioned these.
Jan 2, 2008 | 07:50 PM
#22
I have matlab progams if anybody wants them or wants to run the numbers on a different car/input.
d
Jan 2, 2008 | 08:42 PM
#23
Of course, that 2.2 - 2.5 is for autocross. I would think a track car would want something a little lower. They don't have to deal with the frantic inputs an autocrosser has to.
Why closer to 3.0? The added spring stiffness will get you better body roll characteristics, but I would think that it would start leading to lots of axle hop. The SM Evo I mentioned earlier had 650/550 springs (I think) and the *** end hopped its way through sweepers until you put the power down. Don't know what NF that translates to though.
Why closer to 3.0? The added spring stiffness will get you better body roll characteristics, but I would think that it would start leading to lots of axle hop. The SM Evo I mentioned earlier had 650/550 springs (I think) and the *** end hopped its way through sweepers until you put the power down. Don't know what NF that translates to though.
Jan 2, 2008 | 08:48 PM
#24
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From: Behind the Orange Curtain
Wayyyyyyyy over my head. I just want the car to stick when I want it to, and slide when I don't. I also want to be able to tell the tuner what it's doing wrong, and have him fix it, the first time :-0
Jan 2, 2008 | 09:12 PM
#26
Rear Sway Bar.
That post kind of confuses me. Tuning an adjustable sway involves putting the links in one of several holes. You don't need a suspension guy for that. Unless he meant he had the ECU tuned? EDIT: I think I just figured it out. Alignment.
BTW, I would read up on suspension tuning a little bit. Its really not that difficult. You can have your car tuned by the professionals, but you may need to tweak it for different surfaces. You need to know how to fix it when its behaving badly. Dennis Grant's web site is a good starting point, but there is a ton of information out there.
For instance, you'll probably want to upgrade to an adjustable rear sway bar, and possibly upgrade the front as well. Any of the various bump steer correction kits is a must if you're lowering the car and tracking it. The front roll center correction kit from Whiteline I hear is pretty good too. The same effect can be gotten with camber plates, but then you need two camber adjustments, one at the plate to correct the roll center, and one at the spindle mount to correct the camber.
That post kind of confuses me. Tuning an adjustable sway involves putting the links in one of several holes. You don't need a suspension guy for that. Unless he meant he had the ECU tuned? EDIT: I think I just figured it out. Alignment.
BTW, I would read up on suspension tuning a little bit. Its really not that difficult. You can have your car tuned by the professionals, but you may need to tweak it for different surfaces. You need to know how to fix it when its behaving badly. Dennis Grant's web site is a good starting point, but there is a ton of information out there.
For instance, you'll probably want to upgrade to an adjustable rear sway bar, and possibly upgrade the front as well. Any of the various bump steer correction kits is a must if you're lowering the car and tracking it. The front roll center correction kit from Whiteline I hear is pretty good too. The same effect can be gotten with camber plates, but then you need two camber adjustments, one at the plate to correct the roll center, and one at the spindle mount to correct the camber.
Last edited by GTLocke13; Jan 2, 2008 at 09:17 PM.
Jan 2, 2008 | 09:21 PM
#27
RSB = Rear Sway Bar
JICs have had failures on Subarus, not saying it will happen on EVOs as their quality testing might have improved over time ... But its not something I would like to think about while driving on the track
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzCDi...elated&search=
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642564
I remember reading other horror stories and videos showing failures on Subies ... Feel free to do some searching.
Having Mueller close by is a hugh bonus, as he definately knows what he is doing.
JICs have had failures on Subarus, not saying it will happen on EVOs as their quality testing might have improved over time ... But its not something I would like to think about while driving on the track
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzCDi...elated&search=
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642564
I remember reading other horror stories and videos showing failures on Subies ... Feel free to do some searching.
Having Mueller close by is a hugh bonus, as he definately knows what he is doing.
Jan 2, 2008 | 09:24 PM
#28
Of course, that 2.2 - 2.5 is for autocross. I would think a track car would want something a little lower. They don't have to deal with the frantic inputs an autocrosser has to.
Why closer to 3.0? The added spring stiffness will get you better body roll characteristics, but I would think that it would start leading to lots of axle hop. The SM Evo I mentioned earlier had 650/550 springs (I think) and the *** end hopped its way through sweepers until you put the power down. Don't know what NF that translates to though.
Why closer to 3.0? The added spring stiffness will get you better body roll characteristics, but I would think that it would start leading to lots of axle hop. The SM Evo I mentioned earlier had 650/550 springs (I think) and the *** end hopped its way through sweepers until you put the power down. Don't know what NF that translates to though.
Higher NF's can work, but I wouldn't want them with street tires.
- Andrew
Jan 2, 2008 | 09:25 PM
#29
What type of tire and what size are you planning on running? Have you tracked the stock car yet? Any track experience with an AWD car? What kind of driving are you planning on doing (track days, wheel to wheel, time attack, etc.)?
All that stuff. That will help in choosing the right suspension.
- Andrew