fastkevin

iTrader: (11)

Hope this isn't the proverbial "which oil is best question", but I'm gonna be investing in a track set up, and would like some feedback. I'm prolly gonna use Mueller, but what he recommends (JIC, JIB.. can't remember), I've never heard of. I've heard of Tein (which he doesn't recommend), Cusco and of course Ohlins ( I use it exclusively on road race bikes). I've also read about the controller boxes that allow you to do in-cab adjustments. I like that idea because you should be able to hit the same turn over and over, adjusting the damping easily while you're on the track. Once again, Mueller didn't recommend these. I raced 911's back in the 90's including some endurance racing in a 911 GT2, but I didn't set up the suspension, and IIRC, it was Ohlins or Bilstein. None of the names I read in relation to the Evo, I've ever heard of. I know everybody has their own preference, so maybe tell me about one particular brand that just plain didn't work. Maybe I'll see multiple responses about one in particular to either try,or stay away from.
TIA

Bimmubishi

iTrader: (3)

Kevin, everyone is going to tell you something different. If you have the budget and this is a track only car aim high, aim for something with a wide range of adjustability and valving options (as you have on your bike)

If you are using the car daily go with JIC as you mentioned and have them valve the units to keep the damper rates in line with track springs. Most off the shelf Japanese struts are setup for springs in the 5-7k range which will quickly become unsuitable for track use on sticky tires. It will be fine for a few days out on street rubber but will be overwhelmed with R comps.

You seem to have a handle on things so take what you read here with a grain of salt. People tend to gravitate toward the most popular option of the day without knowing that just about all of the brands are workable, save for Cusco which are Showa dampers and, to my knowledge no one can revalve them.

Alex

Dent Sport Garage

fastkevin

iTrader: (11)

Cusco's Showa, huh? Why can't the valving be changed? Are they sealed?
I like the fact that Mueller's 20 min away for that very reason. If I don't like the valving, I can just take the car to him.
So the JIC's are a decent set up? I'm not rich, and for what he wants for them set up on the car (like $3k), they'll need to be it. I won't be able to afford to buy another set if I don't like 'em.
What do you think about the controller boxes? Didn't seem that JIC had one for their suspension.

Thanks for your reply

Bimmubishi

iTrader: (3)

Kevin, yes- as an owner of Cusco Zero 2 i can attest to their quality. I have Showa units on my RC-51 Honda also and both have withstood quite a beating. As I become a better driver I wish I could have more control of the damper setup and with the sealed nature of the Showa it seems impossible. Refilling the gas charge seems to be the issue at hand.

JIC can do custom valving. Based on some experience with customer's cars I used ot think that JIC's werent' too hot. I later learned after doing this for a few years that coilovers and salt/sand/daily use don't mix well and that the problem was in the application and not the product. I met the owner at an event this year. He's a huge Porsche fanatic and a really nice guy. The product seems solid, but like anything you need to get your setup right or else it's useless.

That said, 3k is a great deal for a custom setup and you probably won't go wrong. I'd probably gravitate away from the stepper motor controllers. They add complexity and weight, on the positive side they do allow large sweeping changes that may help you understand where you need to be.

fastkevin

iTrader: (11)

You know what the upgrade for your forks is, don't ya? Ohlins 20mm pistons, or Ohlins 25mm cartridges Showa is a little better for valving over Kayaba. Showa pistons allow you to drill out the holes where the Kayaba's are too close to the edge. Anyway, you're right about having Showa internals in your Cusco's. You know Showa is high quality, as opposed to I'm sure half the other shocks being made in China.
From what I gather, you're saying the JIC's will be fine if valved properly for track weight springs. IIRC, Mueller said something about valving them.
The car works so well on the street, I almost wanna take it to the track, just to see what the limit is on the stock stuff. Then I remember trying to scuff in race tires on my 911, on the street, and not being able to generate enough heat.
Thanks again for your input. I appreciate it.

inslowoutfast

iTrader: (8)

I have used PIC Performance coilovers with great results. They are not as well known as others such as ohlins, jic, etc... but they have developed their whole product line with motorsports in mind.

They are very reasonably priced and I have seen firsthand a lot of fast track evos with these fitted. They are a no-frills, no nonsense company with excellent customer service. Definitely worth a look into IMO.

Richard EVO

How much do you want to spend? Mueller's Moton set-up is amazing but $5,200 out the door. www.muellerized.com

Robi's KW set-up is excellent too, and about $3,500, I believe. www.robispec.com

You want a well-respected Evo suspension tuner to set up your car. Robi and Mueller are your best choices in SoCal.

GTLocke13

iTrader: (1)

In decreasing order of price (and quality):

Penske
Moton
Ohlins
Koni
Bilstein

The only Bilstein setup is the PSS9, which has some sort of drawback for a full-time race setup, I just can't remember what it is. A Koni setup is available from zzyzxmotorsports.com. The Ohlins are generally available everywhere. Not sure about Motons. They're way out of my price range so I haven't figured out who (if anyone) makes a setup for the Evo (edit: but apparently the guy who beat me to the post did ). Penskes will be custom and big $$$, but they're the absolute best shocks you can get.

Read this: http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

and this: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=262552

Dave Mac

iTrader: (2)

Penske's are uber-good. You can get Motons from GT Worx as well as Ohlins (what I'm running in 08). JRZ's are very, very good but you have to know how to set them up properly. AST is also very good (former engineer from Koni) that is sold by Vorschlag in TX.

dsycks

iTrader: (10)

Nobody has yet to talk about DMS wich I know is also offered by Muellerized. I think they offer the 40s but I'm sure he would also work with their 50s in either configuration but I'm sure you would want the tarmac dampers. Not sure what he would charge for that however.

In short your choice will most likely come down to two things... What you want to do with the car and how you care to use it is of course #1. How much you are wantiong to spend is #2. Everyone would love to run DMS, Ohlins, Moton or the like but it takes tall cheese to get into many of those stystems. The JICs are nice in that they offer a great deal of performance out of the box for a rather low investment and on the track you can get maybe 90-95% of the performance of a system that costs twice as much... maybe more.

In the end I don't think you can go wrong to go with the systems offered by any of the well known suspension guru's as they have great reputations and provide a product that will work in the real world without the guess work you would otherwise need to put into developing your own kit.

As for me... I am strongly leaning to going with a JIC FLTa2 track system to go along with a whiteline roll center kit.

Bimmubishi

iTrader: (3)

There are a lot of professional teams that would take issue with that list. Koni and Bilstein especially.


but... I haven't driven the same car with each of those dampers under the same conditions to be able to make a hierarchical list of what's best.

Barfly30

iTrader: (1)

I've had KWs, JICs, and Motons on my car at various points. Affordability is always relative, but I would just go with the Motons and be done with it.

FWIW, the Motons were good for about a second over the JICs at Big Willow.

GTLocke13

iTrader: (1)

I guess I should have qualified that. Outside of Penske, you can make an argument about which of the other ones are better. Understand that those are all excellent shocks, just that the Penskes are superb. After that list, the quality rapidly falls off (see Dennis Grant's write-up).

fastkevin

iTrader: (11)

Too much for me. $3k was more than what I wanted to spend, but I can deal with it as long as I don't have to replace them for something better down the line. I'm not worried about ride quality. I intially was, but then remembered I drive a dually with an 8" lift. My kidney's have already been bounced around enough so they're used to it. Mueller said that he'd take me for a ride in his car to ascertain how much getting kicked around I can stand. At this point, I'm gonna error onthe side of better handling over better street-ride quality. Robi is 2 hours, and Mueller is only 20 minutes away. I have the kind of business where If I leave the asylum to the inmates for that long, I'll regret it.
JIC seems to be a good set up for the track?

fastkevin

iTrader: (11)

Penske gets DQ'd right off the bat, as I've never had any luck getting them to work on bikes. I know some guys who did, but they went with their own internals. Everybody's riding/driving style is different, but since I've had zero luck personally with Penske on bikes, I'm not gonna try them on my car. Especially when I don't know enough about car suspension to rip into them, and have a very limited budget to work with.
A fellow motorcycle racer buddy of mine put Ohlins on his WRX, and told me to do the same, but knowing that suspension can be an endless cluster-f*** of misery, I'm having a qualified suspension guy set my car up. I don't have the time, money, or patience to deal with the aftermath of a bad set up. My idea of this thread was to get some input from you guys, and then go talk to Mueller about them. At the very least, I can get better educated on it. The guy comes highly regarded, but I like to have a little knowledge on the subject myself, as I'm the one who's spending the $$, and I'm the one who'll be driving the car.
Here's another question: You guys prefer neutral, under, or over steer? I've only raced cars with over-steer(Porsches), and that's all I know. I've instructed in cars with understeer, and in cars that were pretty neutral. I know I don't like understeer, am pretty adept at steering with the back end, but have found the (mine at least) Evo to be pretty neutral-at least on the street. You guys that have driven on the track, what have you set up you car for? Knowing what I do, I was gonna tell Mueller to make the car balanced, but if it's gonna error, have it oversteer.