Silencer

iTrader: (4)

Back to the Ralliart discussion:

Below are the specs for an 05' WRX and an 09' Ralliart:

Weight: 3085, 3462 (in STX trim the difference is still 350-377 lbs)
Length:173.8, 180 inches
Width: 68.5, 69.4
Height: 56.7, 58.7
Wheel base: 99.4, 103.7
F/R Track: 58.5/58.3, 60.2
Steering Ratio:16.5:1, 15.21:1

1st: 3.454, 3.665
2nd: 1.947, 2.368
3rd: 1.366, 1.754
4th: .972, 1.322
5th: .738, .983
6th: .000, .731

Final Drive: 3.90,4.062

Calculated speed for each gear at 6500 (common 245/40/17):

1st: 34.2, 31 mph
2nd: 60.7, 48
3rd: 86.6, 64.7
4th: 121.7, 85.9
5th: 160.2, 115.5

at 7000 rpm:

1st: 36.9, 33.4 mph
2nd: 65.4, 51.6
3rd: 93.2, 69.7
4th: 131.0, 92.5
5th: 172.6, 124.4

The only sections that seem to favor the Ralliart is the steering ratio. It will certainly need the SST for shifting at autox speeds.

Dave

goofygrin

iTrader: (5)

lol, I don't have a chance at winning anything other than local cones and coffee mugs

RaNGVR-4

iTrader: (4)

Dave, Id say that, because of the TCSST, those gear ratios are actually beneficial to the ralliart, and a disadvantage to the WRX. Since the Lancer can actually shift quickly, it can use all of its power in the right spots.

DaWorstPlaya

iTrader: (31)

It's going to need those gear ratios and TCSST quick shifts to get that fat pig moving just to keep up with the WRX

Silencer

iTrader: (4)

What he said /\

IRaNGVR-4, f you read enough of the popular magazine articles, you will find that the characteristics of the Ralliart TCSST is quite sluggish compared to the Evo X. The cause is said to be different programming between the two. Go figure.

Dave

RaNGVR-4

iTrader: (4)

Ah nuts, well, that was a main factor in why my thoughts are the way they are. Guess well just have to wait for some sucker to try one out in STU trim, haha.

Washburn

Not stretching this out, but you guys are too hung up on weight alone. YES...it *is* important, not arguing that. Chris's fat *** IX MR was among the heaviest STU cars at Nationals, and we posted the fastest times during warm up and on Day 2 last year at Nat's, and we were clearly faster than most everyone else all year, including Colin. Clearly weight isn't everything.

Another un-related example: Back in DS running "spec" Neon's. You could not get closer to having a spec car than this. If cars varied by a mere couple pounds, people talked, speculated, blah, blah. Mark Chiles carries a couple extra pounds around the middle, it's no secret, and he had *Factory Air Conditioning*...."OMG....you're runnning AC? That's like 50 pounds....you can't win with AC!!!" Bull-caca. He won with the AC and the spare tire...he had to weigh at least more than 75 to 100 pounds more than anyone else. That's a lot in a spec class with 2400 lb cars.

So, sorry....while you make excellent points, weight is not everything, and classing decisions can't be made on that single factor. We need to consider all aspects when making decisions. Additionally, keep in mind it isn't our obligation to find a competitive place for every new car variant. Retaining long term class stability, health, and popularity is more important in the big picture, that's why you see some new cars get classed conservatively at first. OK...raise your hand if you were in the planning stages of your Ralliart STX build?

Finally, when we published the caution that STX exclusion was being considered for this car, it was an invitation from people who cared. We got zero letters. I know, I counted them twice. I have heard of several progressing RX8 and Colbalt builds though. So, if you think this was the wrong decision, your certainly welcome to go on record by writing a letter to the SEB and providing the facts on why this is so. Every letter really does count.

I'm in a Honda now, so what do I care? (kidding) Damn, I'm going to *really* miss the Evo...what a great car!!!

goofygrin

iTrader: (5)

Cliffs Notes: driver > * so quit yer *****in'

DaWorstPlaya

iTrader: (31)

Patrick next thing you're going to be telling us is luck is a huge factor

Yea but I bet the weight difference between your guy's MR and the lightest EVO out there wasn't 400lbs ... It's all relative.

None of us are saying that car setup and driver isn't a factor, I think we can all agree that changes things a lot.

I take issue with this, I know that you guys volunteer your time and trust me those of us that have dabbled our hands in the planning and administrative duties know what a chore it can be. And thus we are grateful for your efforts. I still think its your duty to be fair and give every car strong consideration to put it in the correct classing to begin with, where it has a chance to compete with the top contenders.

How many people even owned a Ralliart when you guys proposed this? And now that it is, IMHO, mis-classed how many serious contenders will even consider the car? What I'm saying is there is a good chance you guys have killed any chance that those who were seriously considering the car for STX will even give it a second look.

This whole way of classing cars "conservatively" and then have people b!tch and moan about it and have letters sent to make changes, so that things can become fair just seems very @$$ backwards and just leaves a sour taste in the mouths of the people that care. It creates unnecessary extra work for everyone involved and is just plain inefficient. Do it right the 1st time and there's less work to do later on. That way you can spend more time wrenching the Honda

I'm in STU and really don't have a beef in this matter, so you won't be seeing any letters from me about the Ralliart either but fair is fair ... and this just seems a little unfair.

PS: Plus I love the discussion

Washburn

Yeah, I agree that it is our duty to give every car due consideration, and don't think that this hasn't been done. Sounds easy, but when faced with a car that doesn't really fit either class the best, it's very difficult. Potentially kill a popular and growing class with several new cars already coming in? I take that duty more to hear than making sure every car is competitive...we know that can't happen.


The early caution was put out there to garner input from people, as well as to keep someone from going wild on a build and then have the rug pulled out at teh last second. That would have been worse IMHO!!! A large part of what we do....more than most people think....is based on comments and opinions from the membership.


"Doing it right the first time" assumes that your crystal ball is working properly. Mine's in the shop. OK, so doing it right means putting Ralliart into STX. Let's say we did that, and it turns out to be a class killer. Now all those wh ohave already invested in teh class are now obsolete, and the three guys who built Ralliarts are cool. Just a "what if" but what is the more responsible route we should take?

Silencer

iTrader: (4)

Pat,

I have to side with 'DaWorstPlaya'. I respect your position and you as a person/competitor but there is no overlooking the 377 lb. disadvantage against the Ralliart. Some of us are hung-up on the weight because that is the most single convincing fact that separates the Ralliart from the WRX. On paper the evidence shows that the WRX is shorter, thinner, lower and comes with a much better power to weight ratio, even in STX trim. It's true that the bottom end of the motor is the same as the Evo X, but it's restricted with the smaller turbo, cams, and intercooler. The gear ratio in the new TCSST puts you in that time sucking up/down zone unless you like automatics for autocross. Heck, even Mitsubishi built the car to compete with the WRX, R32, and Mazda 3.

For discussion only, I would be interested to see what the STAC members came up with for determining the Ralliarts overdog potential in STX. I don't have a fight in this either and agree that there is no guarantee that a car will be classed competitively, but this round peg belongs in the STX round hole.

Dave

SS RX7 r2

iTrader: (1)

Excluding the Ralliart in STX is a mistake IMO, considering recent results data. STU Evos have a tough time beating STX BMWs in raw time with the new STX 2wd tire allowance.

And ST is even faster. Maybe now is the appropriate time to start thinking about considering 255s for STU AWDs? It won't be long until ST Civics start cherry picking in STX/U at National events...again.

Rick