Loser

iTrader: (9)

This is a question mainly for those of you who have made it out to track days (HPDEs) but haven't taken the next step to doing Time Trials (TTs). A few years ago I would've been able to answer this question, but my state of mind has changed so I'm looking for real answers and not guesses. That being said, I'm opening this up for a discussion to everyone, so feel free to throw in your comments/opinions.

The reason I'm asking this is because I was very shocked to find out that last year in our NASA region there was on average one competitor in each TT class. I find that very disturbing for a chapter of a club that runs probably the best nationally organized TT program. I'm trying to gather some feedback so I can help out the region's TT director in getting more people interested. I realize the bad economy is taking its toll on everyone, but in comparison some other clubs have had much better participation. Most of the time there's no extra cost to partake in TT. So what's keeping you guys from doing some competitive lapping?

delongedoug

iTrader: (20)

Experience. I'm in HPDE1 (most likely 2 later this year) and am in no way prepared to push my car to the point of any sort of track racing. Maybe I had a misconception about what it is, but I simply need seat time combined with instruction.

jid2

iTrader: (62)

I would do NASA TT for sure if it existed in my Area. NASA does not exist in the Northwest, not sure why.

racer145

iTrader: (1)

I think quite often people enjoy being able to run a day at the track without the added stress that running TT or any competition event can bring. Running HPDE is all about you learning how to safely push your car to the limit at whatever pace you wish to push yourself. Once you start to compete in competition events you feel that your success is only measured by your placement in the class.

Even us that run TT enjoy running open track days or HPDE events once in a while for a more relaxed day at the track. Not everyone out there feels the need to compete or have to build a car specifically for a class to be competitive to have fun.

Making the step up to TT involves alot more money and time than one might think. Running HPDE it is alot easier to run what you brung and not worry about having to have the best of everything on the car or trying to keep it outfitted with tires that have as few of heat cycles as possible.

aeroweenie

iTrader: (5)

I've been doing HPDEs for 10 years. Not very interested in TT - how is it different than open lapping except for being timed? I am however interested in racing but have so far resisted the bug. I think it would be much more fun to dice it up with fellow drivers, as opposed to a clock. Big learning curve there, car control skills are just the starting point, rather than the ending point as with HPDEs and (I presume) TTs. Flame suit on!

Loser

iTrader: (9)

delongedoug - I agree an inexperienced or driver lacking confidence in himself should not be out there running against the clock. A driver should be confident and have sufficient car control before being concerned about speed. However on more than one occasion I've had instructors (in-car and classroom) encourage me to use timings from data logs to compare and find better lines. So if the clock is the final judge of how well a student drives, then why is going against the clock such a taboo unless you're in HPDE4?

I know its better to err on the side of caution, but to play devil's advocate, is it better to protect a child from the fire hoping that he would be careful and not hurt himself, or let him burn himself and learn the lesson early and become more responsible?

I ask that because there are a few other clubs (that shall remain unnamed) that allow TT even for the first time student, and I'm not aware of any incidents that you won't find on a normal track day. I think that might be a little extreme, but is there any thought that perhaps the NASA HPDE program is considered too strenuous? Doesn't obtaining an SCCA competition license require less seat time? I might have my facts wrong, but doesn't that require just attending a comp school or two? If so that doesn't even compare to the level of experience of an HPDE4 driver.

Feel free to bring on the heat

Q8_EVO

iTrader: (67)

well said

need_an_evo

iTrader: (7)

x2

metalsaber

iTrader: (9)

I guess I go out for regular track events for the enjoyment. Maybe when I get some more track time will I decide whether to go any further. My EVO is a pleasure vehicle. Last thing I want to do is make it a dedicated track vehicle.

boomn29

iTrader: (47)

x3. I'll just try to add to this!

HPDE'ers that don't want to move to TT is mostly related to their comfort level. They don't want to 'dice it up' with TT sometimes because of a false impression of the group. Other reasons pertain to how their car is prepped and either not wanting to build up or degrade to fit into a competitive class. Additionally, it might be an insurance thing as you can get coverage for the HPDE levels say are non timed events; whereas TT is different.

To the OP; you say your region is pretty dry in TT. But how many cars are in your HPDE levels?

I run with the MW and GL NASA regions. Our TT pulls 20-35 cars usually and the HPDE groups are pretty thick too.
I have to say our TT program is very safe, competitive and a lot of fun. Just look at all the 2009 champions in TT that came from our regions. There's always going to be a few trouble people (I can think of 1 guy in particular) but there's also a handful of guys I run nose/tail with every weekend w/o issue. Given; we know each other pretty well and run similar times.

Loser

iTrader: (9)

I realize that a certain amount of preparation will result in the car being not optimal for daily road use, but there are degrees of preparation. Some hardcore autox guys trailer their cars to events, but many people, including some of the fast guys, drive their cars daily. Similarly you could have a dedicated track car or use your daily driver and still be competitive. You don't have to have the best or most expensive equipment to be competitive or even win regionally. I think it's just a state of mind that scares away most people from doing TT.

Loser

iTrader: (9)

I haven't run with NASA for quite a while, our first event is in March, so I'll be able to get a better idea of the size of the run groups.

Balrok

iTrader: (15)

Time, money, cash, ....some more money.....did I mention money? Oh and time off of work, life, etc But you only live once

My biggest holdup has been getting comfortable enough with a track and a "current state of the car" setup to where I can kick *** and pass inspection - and use it often enough. Being broke and trying to build up a dedicated track car hasn't been my best timing attempt but it's progressing.

On a side note, I personally believe it is RETARDED to try and drive 10/10ths without the proper safety gear in place. I don't care how good you think you are. 9 times out of 10 it won't be your fault, but your life.

delongedoug

iTrader: (20)

I ran with NASA once last year and the group was huge. Granted, I was in HPDE1 so there were more of us n00bs than HPDE3/4'ers, but on a small track like Lime Rock, 30 cars out at once was way too many. Add in some steady rain and nervous novices and I was held up a lot and had to pit several times to get some open track.

I'm signed up for the 2 day NJMP event in April and I've heard HPDE2 is already booked solid. My friend had to request to be bumped up or down just to get in. I'm a maybe for the March and April Lime Rock dates.

Bueller

iTrader: (1)

Initially i didnt want to respond because im not part of the demographic to which your question is directed towards. But ill say that i pretty much agree with what everyone has said thus far. Generally speaking, those that dont do TT either feel like theyre not ready, or theyre not comfortable with competing, or their car is modified to the point where they cant afford to compete in the class they fall in (TTU/TTR).

When i started competing with NASAs TT series in 2007, i did it because thats what i wanted to do. I have the same financial struggles as everyone else, but i had made up my mind, and i did whatever i could to work it out. And as strange as it may seem now (since everyone talks about track days now online), back then a lot of people didnt mention their track days online. They were afraid that someone from Mitusubishi would read about it, and somehow their warranty would get denied. Or they were worried with insurance issues. I dont know how it was on Evom, but thats how it was on Socal Evo. I was probably the first with an Evo who was doing TT in Socal who was posting about it. Now, everyone posts about their track days. On top of that, the known local Mitsubishi dealerships have embraced it. In fact, more people in Socal are getting into some form of TT/TA. The RTA series has taken off in Socal, and Speed Ventures has started their own series also. SV started with the Miata Challenge, then they added the Corvette Challenge, and this year they resurrected the Evo/WRX Challenge. TT/TA events are popping up everywhere in Socal these days.