Discussion: ST2 vs PTA vs...
Jan 26, 2011, 01:46 PM
#16
If you have 2 series where mods are unlimited and you just have to meet a certain power/weight ratio then that's possible. That's about it.
For reference- It's not perfect but:
- SCCA T1 cars convert over to NASA TTU/ST1 (think Corvettes)
- SCCA T2 cars convert over to NASA TTS/ST2 (think Evo's)
Jan 26, 2011, 01:47 PM
#17
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What are the ground rules for STO? Or do you have a link? I've never really been able to find the STO rules.
The nice thing about TTA/PTA and TTS/ST-2 is that (at least for you Evo guys) it could be just a matter of throwing some aero on and taking out ballast if your A setup is just right. The power/weight limit is the same, so not much to change.
Here's what I wish I had built:
Evo IX, which starts out TTB - base weight of 3263lbs
turbo +5
intake, exhaust, no cat, fmic and piping, fuel mods, boost controller +14
275 R6's +11
coilover setup with no ext. reservoir, sways +7
Use the last 2 points to drop 34 lbs.
(3263 lbs - 34 lbs) / 8.4 = 384.4 whp
I've been running e85 for almost a year in my STi now, so I'd have no problem using it in an Evo. It would probably be a stretch without cams to get 384 out of a safe tune, but you could get pretty darn close. For TTS/ST-2 all you do is take out some ballast to get right on the money power/weight-wise and throw on whatever aero you've got.
I don't see an Evo being very competitive in STU/ST-1/TTU. Once you get to that kind of power level you'd probably need a large enough turbo that doesn't function well at partial throttle. Although, I can't wait to see Whit Staples car in action this year. He finally got an FP Black on his 2.3L Evo 9.
The nice thing about TTA/PTA and TTS/ST-2 is that (at least for you Evo guys) it could be just a matter of throwing some aero on and taking out ballast if your A setup is just right. The power/weight limit is the same, so not much to change.
Here's what I wish I had built:
Evo IX, which starts out TTB - base weight of 3263lbs
turbo +5
intake, exhaust, no cat, fmic and piping, fuel mods, boost controller +14
275 R6's +11
coilover setup with no ext. reservoir, sways +7
Use the last 2 points to drop 34 lbs.
(3263 lbs - 34 lbs) / 8.4 = 384.4 whp
I've been running e85 for almost a year in my STi now, so I'd have no problem using it in an Evo. It would probably be a stretch without cams to get 384 out of a safe tune, but you could get pretty darn close. For TTS/ST-2 all you do is take out some ballast to get right on the money power/weight-wise and throw on whatever aero you've got.
I don't see an Evo being very competitive in STU/ST-1/TTU. Once you get to that kind of power level you'd probably need a large enough turbo that doesn't function well at partial throttle. Although, I can't wait to see Whit Staples car in action this year. He finally got an FP Black on his 2.3L Evo 9.
Jan 26, 2011, 01:52 PM
#18
The nice thing about TTA/PTA and TTS/ST-2 is that (at least for you Evo guys) it could be just a matter of throwing some aero on and taking out ballast if your A setup is just right. The power/weight limit is the same, so not much to change.
Here's what I wish I had built:
Evo IX, which starts out TTB - base weight of 3263lbs
turbo +5
intake, exhaust, no cat, fmic and piping, fuel mods, boost controller +14
275 R6's +11
coilover setup with no ext. reservoir, sways +7
Use the last 2 points to drop 34 lbs.
(3263 lbs - 34 lbs) / 8.4 = 384.4 whp
I've been running e85 for almost a year in my STi now, so I'd have no problem using it in an Evo. It would probably be a stretch without cams to get 384 out of a safe tune, but you could get pretty darn close. For TTS/ST-2 all you do is take out some ballast to get right on the money power/weight-wise and throw on whatever aero you've got.
Here's what I wish I had built:
Evo IX, which starts out TTB - base weight of 3263lbs
turbo +5
intake, exhaust, no cat, fmic and piping, fuel mods, boost controller +14
275 R6's +11
coilover setup with no ext. reservoir, sways +7
Use the last 2 points to drop 34 lbs.
(3263 lbs - 34 lbs) / 8.4 = 384.4 whp
I've been running e85 for almost a year in my STi now, so I'd have no problem using it in an Evo. It would probably be a stretch without cams to get 384 out of a safe tune, but you could get pretty darn close. For TTS/ST-2 all you do is take out some ballast to get right on the money power/weight-wise and throw on whatever aero you've got.
370whp is about as much as you could get; you'll never see 384whp unless there's disregard for the life of the engine. I'd never use 2 pts to drop weight though; it'd be better used on a bump/steer kit or a Diff upgrade or rear diffuser or front canards.
Just my .02
Jan 26, 2011, 02:30 PM
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Here is the count back in 2008 at the Mid Ohio championship. 18 ST-2 and 9 cars in PTA. I know some of the BMW guys will run in GTS 3 or PTA. I have yet to see a GTS 4 car that can run with the top ST-2 cars.
Jan 26, 2011, 02:32 PM
#20
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Can't be done. You can't do more than one thing well. Trust me. I tried balancing the line between RTA and NASA for a bit - but it's pretty much impossible to do both correctly.
If you have 2 series where mods are unlimited and you just have to meet a certain power/weight ratio then that's possible. That's about it.
For reference- It's not perfect but:
If you have 2 series where mods are unlimited and you just have to meet a certain power/weight ratio then that's possible. That's about it.
For reference- It's not perfect but:
- SCCA T1 cars convert over to NASA TTU/ST1 (think Corvettes)
- SCCA T2 cars convert over to NASA TTS/ST2 (think Evo's)
Just try building a car that can pass tech for Hillclimbs/RR/TT/Rally. Not an easy feat. Now, throw on top of that the different class rules for each group and you will soon find your head exploding.
Jarrod, I plan on doing what i can racing wise this year. Top of the list is the Mt. Washington hillclimb. After that i thought about going to get my W2W license and racing SCCA/NASA. (why i'm reading this thread) But, we will have to see if that happens this year or not. The car will be ready to race this year, Just not sure if i will.
Jan 26, 2011, 04:32 PM
#21
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What are the ground rules for STO? Or do you have a link? I've never really been able to find the STO rules.
The nice thing about TTA/PTA and TTS/ST-2 is that (at least for you Evo guys) it could be just a matter of throwing some aero on and taking out ballast if your A setup is just right. The power/weight limit is the same, so not much to change.
Here's what I wish I had built:
Evo IX, which starts out TTB - base weight of 3263lbs
turbo +5
intake, exhaust, no cat, fmic and piping, fuel mods, boost controller +14
275 R6's +11
coilover setup with no ext. reservoir, sways +7
Use the last 2 points to drop 34 lbs.
(3263 lbs - 34 lbs) / 8.4 = 384.4 whp
I've been running e85 for almost a year in my STi now, so I'd have no problem using it in an Evo. It would probably be a stretch without cams to get 384 out of a safe tune, but you could get pretty darn close. For TTS/ST-2 all you do is take out some ballast to get right on the money power/weight-wise and throw on whatever aero you've got.
I don't see an Evo being very competitive in STU/ST-1/TTU. Once you get to that kind of power level you'd probably need a large enough turbo that doesn't function well at partial throttle. Although, I can't wait to see Whit Staples car in action this year. He finally got an FP Black on his 2.3L Evo 9.
The nice thing about TTA/PTA and TTS/ST-2 is that (at least for you Evo guys) it could be just a matter of throwing some aero on and taking out ballast if your A setup is just right. The power/weight limit is the same, so not much to change.
Here's what I wish I had built:
Evo IX, which starts out TTB - base weight of 3263lbs
turbo +5
intake, exhaust, no cat, fmic and piping, fuel mods, boost controller +14
275 R6's +11
coilover setup with no ext. reservoir, sways +7
Use the last 2 points to drop 34 lbs.
(3263 lbs - 34 lbs) / 8.4 = 384.4 whp
I've been running e85 for almost a year in my STi now, so I'd have no problem using it in an Evo. It would probably be a stretch without cams to get 384 out of a safe tune, but you could get pretty darn close. For TTS/ST-2 all you do is take out some ballast to get right on the money power/weight-wise and throw on whatever aero you've got.
I don't see an Evo being very competitive in STU/ST-1/TTU. Once you get to that kind of power level you'd probably need a large enough turbo that doesn't function well at partial throttle. Although, I can't wait to see Whit Staples car in action this year. He finally got an FP Black on his 2.3L Evo 9.
This small statement sort of embodies that:
If you want to build a car for racing, by advice is to think of your build on those terms.
Jan 26, 2011, 05:07 PM
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384whp would be a stretch even with cams. Forget every thread youve seen showing dyno numbers. Building a car on paper for dyno numbers or for TT/TA is not the same as building a car for racing. Thats part of what ive been trying to say in this thread. What works in TT/TA for us may not work in a 45min race.
This small statement sort of embodies that:
If you want to build a car for racing, by advice is to think of your build on those terms.
This small statement sort of embodies that:
If you want to build a car for racing, by advice is to think of your build on those terms.
) that will hang with you for a little while but they always end up breaking axles, ecu issues, overheating, etc. and never finish. In order to finish first, you must first finish!
Jan 26, 2011, 05:31 PM
#23
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Can't be done. You can't do more than one thing well. Trust me. I tried balancing the line between RTA and NASA for a bit - but it's pretty much impossible to do both correctly.
If you have 2 series where mods are unlimited and you just have to meet a certain power/weight ratio then that's possible. That's about it.
For reference- It's not perfect but:
If you have 2 series where mods are unlimited and you just have to meet a certain power/weight ratio then that's possible. That's about it.
For reference- It's not perfect but:
- SCCA T1 cars convert over to NASA TTU/ST1 (think Corvettes)
- SCCA T2 cars convert over to NASA TTS/ST2 (think Evo's)
I thought T2 had pretty strict limits for the Evo. Lots of weight, not many bolt ons, small tires. Doesn't Marty run like 3400 something lbs?
Yep, that'd be a good setup. It's one option I tossed around.
370whp is about as much as you could get; you'll never see 384whp unless there's disregard for the life of the engine. I'd never use 2 pts to drop weight though; it'd be better used on a bump/steer kit or a Diff upgrade or rear diffuser or front canards.
Just my .02
370whp is about as much as you could get; you'll never see 384whp unless there's disregard for the life of the engine. I'd never use 2 pts to drop weight though; it'd be better used on a bump/steer kit or a Diff upgrade or rear diffuser or front canards.
Just my .02
http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/w...it-KCA395.html
Or are you just talking about using only the tie-rod ends?
384whp would be a stretch even with cams. Forget every thread youve seen showing dyno numbers. Building a car on paper for dyno numbers or for TT/TA is not the same as building a car for racing. Thats part of what ive been trying to say in this thread. What works in TT/TA for us may not work in a 45min race.
How light are you guys able to get your caged Evos? Is 3013 lbs with driver, no fuel possible? If that's the case you'd only have to make 354 whp, and if you throw the max allowed 250 lbs of ballast back in the car you're at base weight again. 354 whp on a IX turbo, e85, well vented hood, could probably last well in a race.
Jan 26, 2011, 06:44 PM
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Okay, so you think 380 whp on DynoJet is easy. The next question is, at what boost level? I think if you can make that power at less than 25 psi then it could be sustainable during a race.
Jan 26, 2011, 08:43 PM
#26
I usually am talking about DynoJet numbers. For NASA you have to add 10% to whatever you make on a Mustang.
Okay, so you think 380 whp on DynoJet is easy. The next question is, at what boost level? I think if you can make that power at less than 25 psi then it could be sustainable during a race.
Okay, so you think 380 whp on DynoJet is easy. The next question is, at what boost level? I think if you can make that power at less than 25 psi then it could be sustainable during a race.
So, you crank your boost controller wide open and log your boost graph. Then you dial your boost controller back so that it just starts to control the action of the turbo on the top end. That will keep it from freewheeling and overspinning on the top end trying to reach an unattainable boost level, and will thus reduce the heating of the compressed air.
In my car I run an electronic boost controller tied to RPM. This allows me to limit the torque spike (and thus keep my rods from taking a vacation from my block) yet still run as much boost as my turbo can make up top. . .
I've been running an original FP Green at 28-30psi spike tapering to about 23-24psi at redline on a stock block for 4 years with no problems or failures except for my stock head bolts giving up after 3 years leading to a blown head gasket. That's at over 400whp on a MD and high 400's on a DJ. I think most of the top BSP autocross Evos are in the 360-400 DJ WHP range on very limited mods. . .
Jan 27, 2011, 12:38 AM
#27
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Yeah, tuning a car to that much power for a 45 min race wouldn't cut it. For TT purposes (no more than 2-3 hot laps at a time) I think you could get away with 384 on a IX turbo with no cams (on e85). I've TT'd my Evo 8 at ~380 whp for a couple events and it held up. IX turbo would make up for the fact that I had cams.
How light are you guys able to get your caged Evos? Is 3013 lbs with driver, no fuel possible? If that's the case you'd only have to make 354 whp, and if you throw the max allowed 250 lbs of ballast back in the car you're at base weight again. 354 whp on a IX turbo, e85, well vented hood, could probably last well in a race.
How light are you guys able to get your caged Evos? Is 3013 lbs with driver, no fuel possible? If that's the case you'd only have to make 354 whp, and if you throw the max allowed 250 lbs of ballast back in the car you're at base weight again. 354 whp on a IX turbo, e85, well vented hood, could probably last well in a race.
Ive thought about E85 since i took the step to start racing. I havent taken the time to investigate, but the one obstacle i would need to figure out is how much E85 i would need to finish a 45min race. And from what ive seen thus far, the OEM tank is too small. If i have the money and time, that would be something id like to try someday. And that obviously means id need a fuel cell. But the other obstacle would be to figure out how to transport enough E85 every time i go race. Whatever it is, id imagine that id need a lot of E85.
My Regional races
Sat: Warmup, Qualify, 35min Race
Sun: Warmup, Qualify, 35min Race
*Nationals
Day 1: Warmup, Qualify, Race
Day 2: Warmup, Qualify, Race
Day 3: Warmup, 45min Race
* Thus far there have been a good 2 test/tune days right before Nationals. And theres probably 1-2 other warmup sessions other than what ive listed. Furthermore, some racers supersize by competing in TT also.
Last edited by Bueller; Jan 27, 2011 at 05:27 AM.
Jan 27, 2011, 06:19 AM
#28
Interesting reading all this. I am about to start my second full year of HPDE's and hope to possibly try some TT competition in 2012. I have studied the goings on in the TTA and TTS ranks here in NASA-SE. Nunally and Perkins pretty much dominate NASA-SE TTA in their Vettes. One place they really are nearly untouchable is Road Atlanta which plays very well to the Vette's best qualitites.
Because of some stuff I did early on with my Evo, I would have to spend $$$ to get it properly set up for TTA. Like my transmission. Before I ever started this HPDE madness I had my tranny rebuilt due to poor shifting issues. While it was out I had the Evo 8 3-4-5 gears installed. Now that is 3 points that really gets me nothing. I have a JDM rear bumper which will get me dinged on rear diffuser points. So to make my IX a smart TTA machine (Like Nate's) I am looking at $$ to de-mod.
But, if you look at TTS in NASA-SE, it is usually a slower field than TTA. At RA in Dec a 1'36 got second place in TTS but wouldn't make top 3 in TTA. I think there are probably more people in TTS running cars that have not been built from the get-go at a TTA spec car but still want to go out and give it a try.
That said, I'll probably give TTS a try to start with next year.
I am highly debating looking for a well-used Evo 8 in a couple of years, stripping it down and building a purpose built TTB machine. Since the 8 starts as TTC* (iirc) I think it could be turned into a top flight TTB machine.
Because of some stuff I did early on with my Evo, I would have to spend $$$ to get it properly set up for TTA. Like my transmission. Before I ever started this HPDE madness I had my tranny rebuilt due to poor shifting issues. While it was out I had the Evo 8 3-4-5 gears installed. Now that is 3 points that really gets me nothing. I have a JDM rear bumper which will get me dinged on rear diffuser points. So to make my IX a smart TTA machine (Like Nate's) I am looking at $$ to de-mod.
But, if you look at TTS in NASA-SE, it is usually a slower field than TTA. At RA in Dec a 1'36 got second place in TTS but wouldn't make top 3 in TTA. I think there are probably more people in TTS running cars that have not been built from the get-go at a TTA spec car but still want to go out and give it a try.
That said, I'll probably give TTS a try to start with next year.
I am highly debating looking for a well-used Evo 8 in a couple of years, stripping it down and building a purpose built TTB machine. Since the 8 starts as TTC* (iirc) I think it could be turned into a top flight TTB machine.
Jan 27, 2011, 06:44 AM
#29
Yeah, he's very limited and nothing is apples-to-apples but I was just trying to give a reference point. Marty has run < 2:10's at VIR and in my first trip there in TTB spec I ran 2:11's in 103 degree heat.
Eh, engine would be fine. Wouldn't this kit be +4 because of E. Suspension 18) & 19) ?
http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/w...it-KCA395.html
Or are you just talking about using only the tie-rod ends?
http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/w...it-KCA395.html
Or are you just talking about using only the tie-rod ends?
http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/w...it-KCA388.html
How light are you guys able to get your caged Evos? Is 3013 lbs with driver, no fuel possible? If that's the case you'd only have to make 354 whp, and if you throw the max allowed 250 lbs of ballast back in the car you're at base weight again. 354 whp on a IX turbo, e85, well vented hood, could probably last well in a race.
Last edited by boomn29; Jan 27, 2011 at 06:51 AM.
Jan 27, 2011, 06:51 AM
#30
Because of some stuff I did early on with my Evo, I would have to spend $$$ to get it properly set up for TTA. Like my transmission. Before I ever started this HPDE madness I had my tranny rebuilt due to poor shifting issues. While it was out I had the Evo 8 3-4-5 gears installed. Now that is 3 points that really gets me nothing. I have a JDM rear bumper which will get me dinged on rear diffuser points. So to make my IX a smart TTA machine (Like Nate's) I am looking at $$ to de-mod.
But things like a 3pt trans kinda handicaps you and forces you into TTA or S - yep. Hey; I've love to have different gearing. Running a smaller tire like I sometimes do; I'm finding redline in 4th at 104mph! Which is why I run pretty high oil temps as I'm always sitting in those high 4th gear rpms through the sweepers.
But yeah, an Evo can do helli-good in TTB. I've had a lot of success there; just ready to develop the car more so I've bumped up to TTA.