Bueller

iTrader: (1)

After seeing some posts and getting some emails about people discussing whether they want to race in PTA or ST2, i thought it would be beneficial to start a thread dedicated to that discussion. Most of us here know each other, but here is some background info on me to help better illustrate where my thoughts are coming from.

- 2007-2008: I competed with NASA in TTA with my Evo 9 in the Socal region.
- 2009: Started racing in ST2 with the same Evo 9.

Keep in mind that:

1. I dont really keep up with the TT/PT rules anymore.
2. The TT rules can change pretty much every year.
3. With those changes, advantages/disadvantages ensue.

For instance, iirc in 2009 the TT rules changed significantly, and the one primary change that helped us in TTA was the turbo rule. We no longer had to take the 10pts for ECU tuning. Instead, all turbo cars took a mandatory +5. That helped us in TTA specifically because we basically got back 5pts.

Btw, if i say something that is incorrect, or theres a new rule that changes things, please do not hesitate to correct me or to note it here. Furthermore, i want to hear what you guys have to say. The purpose of this thread is so we can all help each other out. So if any of you TT guys who want to start racing have any questions, or input, please do not hesitate to address it here. Moving onto the discussion about PTA vs ST2:

Here are some things i think people should think about before committing to PTA. Can your car be competitive? Is that important for you? Do you want to race in a class that is competitive? I can tell you that PTA is dead in my region (Socal), and im pretty sure its dead in Norcal also. It was also dead at Nationals the last 2 years (2009-2010). And iirc, it was sort of dead in 2008 when i came to Mid-O for Nationals. That doesnt mean its going to be dead this year or the next, im just noting some info.

Before i started racing, one of the many things that was on my mind was how much faster i could be in ST2 coming from TTA. I noted earlier that keep in mind that the rules change pretty much every year. And so far, the rules have helped us for TTA.

The other issue comes down to the limits of our Evo 9. The OEM 9 turbo can make good power, but we have to be aware of its limits. Our minimum weight in TT is 3263. I actually forgot what it is so i had to check this one. But in actuality, if the rules havent changed, we can run as low as 3259 because we start taking points for weight reduction starting with 5lbs under our listed weight. So if were 5lbs under 3263, which is 3258, we take 1 point. But if were at 3259, were fine.

If you run 245s, given the w/p limit of TTA = 8.7 (which is the same as TTS/ST2), you technically are allowed to make up to 407whp. Thats if i did my math correctly, and if i havent forgotten the TT rules. As you know, chances are that we will never make that much power, especially with the point limitations of TTA. If you run 275s, you can make up to 387whp. But again, chances are you wont make that much power. However, you figure youre doing TT, and a few hot laps arent going to kill you. So you can have your tuner push things as far as he can but also keep it relatively safe. Youre out there for a few hot laps, and worst case scenario you can pull off for a few minutes for everything to cool off. And then you can go back out again. Given all that, you can maybe make around 360whp with the OEM turbo if youre lucky. Keep in mind these are dynojet numbers. No one i know has ever ran cams in TTA with their Evo 9. Not enough points left over after suspension, tires, and so forth. Either way, you can cross your fingers all you want, we cant make the maximum amount of power were allowed given our minimum weight due to the points limitations. Maybe its achievable now with E85, but i dont have experience with E85.

Here is where it gets tricky for us. With the new rules we actually have the capability to beat the Vettes in TTA. But, everything changes if you want to race in PTA:

1. The Vettes have no problem making their maximum allowed power given their minimum weight for TTA/PTA, or for TTS/ST2 because they pretty much make that power from the factory. We on the other hand, have to push our OEM 9 turbos close to or around its limits (with a relatively safe track tune). But the big question for us is if it will be reliable and potent if youre racing in 35min, 45min races? It might be, but probably not for long. Beyond that, it might become inefficient at those power levels if youre out there pushing it for 35-45min straight.

2. The Vettes can run, iirc, 295s in TTA/PTA without taking additional points. That is another big advantage because it helps prevent their tires from falling off due to the wider tread width. Tires fall off regardless, but the wider tread width gives them more of a capacity. So we might be able to keep up with them in PTA for a few laps, but eventually, theyre going to pull away because our tires are going to fall off quicker than theirs. A PTA Evo 9 with +360whp and 275s cant compete with a Vette because the Vette can safely and easily make the maximum amount of power theyre allowed given their minimum weight, and they can run 295s without taking additional points. We on the other hand, cant safely and easily make 387whp on the OEM 9 turbo, so we would have to settle for around whatever amount of power we can harness given the points we use at around 3259lbs. That means we will be down on power, at the same time be at or around the limits of our efficiency range of the OEM 9 turbo. Again, im not up to date with E85, so E85 might change all that. If E85 can allow you to make the power youre allowed, it will work for TTA. But can it work in PTA? Remember, everything changes when you start racing. It doesnt matter how fast you can run for 1 lap. What matters is how fast you can run from start to finish. Regional races are 35min, while the National Championship race is 45min. How big of a tank would you need so that you dont run out of E85? Furthermore, lets say you can make 387whp on E85, within the point limitations of PTA, can the OEM Evo 9 turbo be efficient at those power levels in 35-45min races?

If i had a TTA Evo 9 right now, i think there is a good chance that i could run faster with it than ive ran with my ST2 Evo. But i know that i cant compare it to my ST2 lap times because lap times in a race are different. However, above all, i know that i can run relatively fast ST2 lap times in my ST2 Evo that are within tenths of each other for at least 45min straight. That definitely depends on the driver. And you will have to learn that once you start racing, but you also need a car that is setup to have that capacity. Although, my experience tells me that a PTA Evo, due to the point limitations, cant have that capacity given what i noted earlier...turbo will be under too much stress at those power levels in race conditions, and our tires will fall off much more than the Vettes given our parameters (275s vs the Vettes 295s). Especially if youre trying to maintain your fastest TTA lap times in a 35-45min PTA race.

obzezzed350

I think an Evo could very competitive in PTA, especially at Nationals this year at Mid Ohio. Those Corvettes you talk about in PTA only get sway bars and tires with their points. No engine mods, no shocks and springs, no aero. I am running a Z in PTA this year that is capped at 306whp due to my reclass. Yea I am down 70whp on some of the vettes but a bit lighter, have full suspension, full aero, and a few other things. Do I have a shot on tracks with crazy straightaways like Road Atlanta, no way! But come Mid Ohio this year at Nats, my setup should handle alot of those elevation changes and off cambers turns better than them. PTA is great since it keeps the spending in check. Best of luck!

boomn29

iTrader: (47)

Ed - everything you say is correct.

There's no doubt an Evo can be faster in ST2 than PTA - it has to be because the competition is faster. So here's my thoughts centered on competing nationally. In the MW 7 GL regions we several Nat'l TTA, TTS and ST2 CorVettes that I run with and compare lap times to all the time.

ST2 Builds:
The way I see it there's 2 options for ST2:Along that the power from one of the above options, you'll of course need full suspension and full aero - because everyone else will have it! Plus the CorVettes in ST2 will have torque engines with dry sumps (ala lowered) that have timing pulled to back the hp ratings down. Because keep in mind while you're limited on hp, there's no stipulation on torque!

PTA isn't as popular; no. It's growing on the East Coast, with the Mid-A, and SE groups having some turnout. The GL guys have some but they usually run ST2. Ed hit our limitations right on the nose. Along with yearly tweaks to the TT/PT ruleset you have a few hurdles in this class. The main - cranking out as much power out of the OEM turbo as possible. 360-370 is about the max you can safely run for 35min. You can run full suspension and a good tire - but probably 0 aero (unless you trade another mod for it). You can't upgrade the turbo here unless you get a reclass which means you'll be running around 310whp (trust me; I've asked).

The main benefit for PTA - it's cheaper. Also if you have a good setup you could probably dump weight pretty quickly and be somewhat competitive as option #1 above in ST2 on any given weekend if the car counts in PTA were low. Just an idea.

Balrok

iTrader: (15)

I got the same conclusion that STx was more popular nationally then PTA so when I started the build back in 08, I built for TTS/ST2. But yes when you jump from A-F to SUR or ST then it gets interesting. So we know you can't compare a TTA build to a TTS build, and the same for a PTA build to an ST2 build. Totally different strategies to get to the goal. As far as the Evo goes, most of the points made are valid. To MAX OUT in either class, ST suits the Evo much better, As it was designed to be a Porsche/Vette killer - given the right combo of parts and drivers. With that the Evo is likely one of the hands down most versital cars on the track period since it can go from mild to wild fairly easy. Like say Boom's car compared to the SSE car. You can't do SSE level with a Z or RX8 or M3. Those cars peak out much sooner thus they are better suited to the PT level. However, on a national or regional level, a PT Evo can likely still win as often as an ST car because you never know what's going to happen in the race.

Is PT Cheaper? Yes. Does it use the car to it's capabilities? Deff not. Would it still be fun? Depends on your region and the entries.

In the FL region, ST is non-existent, as there is only 1 ST1 vette running all by himself. However the same goes for PT as there's only 1 regular but now 2 or 3 are popping up as of the last event. With Joe at the helm, we'll likely get more and more participants as the season rolls on through. The bigger problem is that a lot of TTA/S level cars are still making payments or aren't crazy enough to gut and cage a car that's only 5 years old like the rest of us

I went as far as emailing Greg to see what it would take to class my ST build into PTA to help car count. No response yet

boomn29

iTrader: (47)

Already ahead of ya. That's why I listed the # below; which will vary depending on what weight you want to run. But I PM'd you specifics.

MSP608

iTrader: (11)

It sounds like there is a good PTA group in the SE, and I think a few other SpecZ06's will be joining this year. I'm not sure how many of them plan to attend nationals, but I imagine it should be a lot better this year than it has been in the past.

I think it's possible for an Evo 9 to beat a C5Z in PTA. Yes the OEM turbo might fall off during a 45 min race, but the Vettes are limited to stock brakes, which I hear aren't the greatest.

For TT they've all been running 275 A6's this year, since A's went up 3 pts from last year. And unless they step down to R's, they wouldn't have room to upgrade calipers. One of the SE guys is going to run 255's on his C5Z. I don't know what he's up to, but it can't be good.

So who's going to run their Evo in PTA at nats this year? I'm foolishly still building my STi for PTA even though I can't ever be competitive. 315 whp limit ftl. Wish I could have started out with a nice stock turbo that actually pushed out real power.

Bueller

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for your input. Good luck to you at Nationals this year. Ill keep an eye out to see how you do. Btw, do you have any links that illustrate your cars setup, and show some in-car of your races?

How one builds for ST2 is sort of a combination of driver preference coupled with experience. Some setups will benefit certain tracks, either way, each one is a compromise. There are factors that you guys will only really start to understand when you start racing. The big picture in my perspective is a juggling act. And you have to try to find the sweet spot to keep everything balanced.

275 sized tires for most HPDE drivers is pretty big. But things change in time, and even more so when you start racing. Like I said earlier, racing is partly about how fast you can run from start to finish. A certain setup may sound appealing at first, but you may also learn later that it wont work all that well in 35-45min races. Or you may learn that it doenst suit your style. If you were to limit me to the 2 options you noted, I would pick #1. While upgrading your turbo, and having the capacity to make 395whp efficiently sounds like a ton of fun, my experience and preference tells me to stay away. Here are some thoughts in special order:

With 395whp youre going to have a ton of straight line speed. Meaning, youre going to hit some really high top speeds. We all need to slow down at one point or another. To slow down, we not only need enough braking power, we also need enough tire. A 3300lb Evo that makes 395whp is going to struggle with 275s in race conditions. It can be a really fun HPDE and TT/TA car, but it will struggle as a racecar. After a few laps, especially if you have some serious competition, those 275s are going to get greasy. Beyond that, your brakes are also going to struggle more than they should because you dont have enough tire to balance things out. Sure, you can upgrade to a nice BBK, but if you dont have enough tire to match it, your brakes are going to get overused. I say why use that much power if you can run as fast, if not faster, with less power? Besides, you will probably use more gas with all that extra power. Who knows, it may suit someones style, but they probably arent really aware of those challenges i noted until they experience it for themselves.

There is another issue here involving an upgraded turbo. If you recall i had this discussion with you through email:

If, for TTS/ST2, youre considering upgrading your turbo, you need to think about a few more things. Will it be laggy for your power levels? Every setup has its optimal efficiency range. So then youll have a range that varies from the minimum to the maximum. If youre below the minimum your car will be too laggy, and if youre above it its highly likely for something to fail more quickly. What im about to say is not factual, just a possibility for you to think about... Someone with the OEM 9 turbo making lets say 340-350whp can be faster than a guy with a bigger turbo thats making say 380-390whp. Reason i say that is that the bigger turbo may be too laggy at those power levels. You may have to run it at lets say 400whp, or 450whp for it to reward you its benefits. So keep that in mind if youre considering to upgrade your turbo. I dont know the details of the FP-Green, but maybe you need to run it at lets say no less than 360whp, or 380whp for it to be beneficial. And if thats the case, what if you decide to lighten up your car? Or what if you realize you need more tire? Both of those routes requires you to reduce your power.

apex electric

We lost a couple ST-2 cars in the northeast region. The black Sti and a MR Evo were my local competition. They were both sold and I am not sure what cars may take their place. Both cars were heavy. The Sti was running well over 400whp and the MR had about 385 using a FP Green. I upgraded my Evo 8 with a stock 9 turbo deciding to lose weight instead. ST has unlimited rules outside of the basic hp/weight calculations. This is a class you can run very advanced designs and components. If a current factory BTCC team (British Touring Car that weighs about 2500lbs with 280hp) showed up you would see lap times in ST-2 that would be unimaginable. Unless Danny Popp was in a ST-2 Corvette!

EVOlutionary

iTrader: (38)

And that's not unimaginable either. I don't know Danny but seems he's moving away from dominating TT and more into the ST ranks . . . have you seen his "going to the front" video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht6SyV8S8Mw

Danny a couple years ago at Mid Ohio - looks like he was running 1:27 - 1:28 ish during the race. . .


EVOlutionary

boomn29

iTrader: (47)

Here's a better back-to-the-front video from Mid-Ohio:

http://www.vimeo.com/1574679

Forced to start in back with a fast car - Scott passes something like 11 cars before the first turn.

racer145

iTrader: (1)

Great piece of driving in both of the videos. I will have to save these for future study.

jerdeitzel

iTrader: (9)

Can we discuss how these classes relate to Super Touring Over with the SCCA?

Its funny reading so many build threads about aero and time attack cars that do mods that are not legal for anything other then NASA racing/RTA. Its a very tuff road to try and have a car be able to compete with a bunch of groups.

EVOlutionary

iTrader: (38)

That would be an interesting conversation - build the ultimate multi-series EVO. One that can compete in some combination of ST1/2, PTA, STO, TTA/S/U, etc. . .

I think the thing is, many people have a limited amount of time and $$, so they may only be able to run 6-8 race weekends per year. If you can do those all in one series that's probably better than running 3 events in 3 different classes or series. . .

What are your race plans this summer Jeremy? I wish we had hill climbs in MI - just too flat! Gonna make it out to any NASA events @ Mid Ohio?

MSP608

iTrader: (11)

What are the ground rules for STO? Or do you have a link? I've never really been able to find the STO rules.

The nice thing about TTA/PTA and TTS/ST-2 is that (at least for you Evo guys) it could be just a matter of throwing some aero on and taking out ballast if your A setup is just right. The power/weight limit is the same, so not much to change.

Here's what I wish I had built:

Evo IX, which starts out TTB - base weight of 3263lbs

turbo +5

intake, exhaust, no cat, fmic and piping, fuel mods, boost controller +14

275 R6's +11

coilover setup with no ext. reservoir, sways +7

Use the last 2 points to drop 34 lbs.

(3263 lbs - 34 lbs) / 8.4 = 384.4 whp

I've been running e85 for almost a year in my STi now, so I'd have no problem using it in an Evo. It would probably be a stretch without cams to get 384 out of a safe tune, but you could get pretty darn close. For TTS/ST-2 all you do is take out some ballast to get right on the money power/weight-wise and throw on whatever aero you've got.

I don't see an Evo being very competitive in STU/ST-1/TTU. Once you get to that kind of power level you'd probably need a large enough turbo that doesn't function well at partial throttle. Although, I can't wait to see Whit Staples car in action this year. He finally got an FP Black on his 2.3L Evo 9.

Balrok

iTrader: (15)

I think Hamflex is doing that already, an ST1/STO evo. It's pretty simple rule wise as you need 450hp and several key mods you should do or stay away from. Easy enough keeping the 2.0 and using a HTA Red or the like. There are quite a few setup like that around the country. Same class cars like Vette's, Viper's and such do the same. However in looking at the STO national or even regional level cars, esp Vette's, these guys have full "snap on" fiber bodies, full slicks, super built dry sump, the works, MUCHO $$ there.

ST2 wouldn't translate very well to STU since the difference is so huge (weight especially). Then you'd look at the Touring classes compared to the PT classes.....but....I heard Touring is going away for whatever reason.

So the Evo can do it, if someone wanted to invest, ya for sure. But nobody is anymore. I think Vesko? did the speed world challange GT, which is the same as the STO class, with all that build's prep and still got spanked.

There are other org's out there like PBOC, Farra, and such that do racing series but i've not read up on their rules yet.