project:BDR 2006 Evo STU build thread
May 19, 2011, 07:20 PM
#32
From this thread:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ound-here.html
the refresh from my understanding IS the stock set up, just reshimmed or whatever to get it back up to factory spec/new - but considering that the stock rear diff is pretty ineffective from the get go i don't think there will be much benefit to be had. i could be wrong though
* investment, racing...
May 20, 2011, 08:07 AM
#35
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Butt Dyno,
I don't quite recall the exact conversion, but for every 50 psi in your canisters, you are increasing the spring rate by 25 lb. So in reality, you have increased your total spring rate to 710f/910r. On factory tires, that is way too stiff. BSP and SM, your right there! I've tested 400, 450, 500, 550, 600, 650, 700, and 800 front springs and 600, 650, 675, 700, 750, 800, 900 rear. After running 800/900 durning Nationals in Topeka (asphalt and too much roll stiffness), I came to the final conclusion that 650/800 was the best all around for my set-up for both asphalt and concrete (Forbes). I also played with canister pressures and arrived at 125/100 out of the 300psi possible. Once you get the bump and rebound figured out, the Nitrogen pressures along with rear ride height were the main tuning tools I used during events. I actually did a f/r spring swap at one of the Pros between morning and afternoon runs. The car needed an aggressive change from being way to loose. Way too stressful. btw, ZZYZX recommends 700/700. You might consider a slightly stiffer front and rear bar. I used Progress for the rear set to softest of 3 settings. Don't forget to change out specific bushings to PU.
As far as power, you are around 100whp from where you need to be (Mustang Dyno). Might as well compare yourself to STX times.
Dave
I don't quite recall the exact conversion, but for every 50 psi in your canisters, you are increasing the spring rate by 25 lb. So in reality, you have increased your total spring rate to 710f/910r. On factory tires, that is way too stiff. BSP and SM, your right there! I've tested 400, 450, 500, 550, 600, 650, 700, and 800 front springs and 600, 650, 675, 700, 750, 800, 900 rear. After running 800/900 durning Nationals in Topeka (asphalt and too much roll stiffness), I came to the final conclusion that 650/800 was the best all around for my set-up for both asphalt and concrete (Forbes). I also played with canister pressures and arrived at 125/100 out of the 300psi possible. Once you get the bump and rebound figured out, the Nitrogen pressures along with rear ride height were the main tuning tools I used during events. I actually did a f/r spring swap at one of the Pros between morning and afternoon runs. The car needed an aggressive change from being way to loose. Way too stressful. btw, ZZYZX recommends 700/700. You might consider a slightly stiffer front and rear bar. I used Progress for the rear set to softest of 3 settings. Don't forget to change out specific bushings to PU.
As far as power, you are around 100whp from where you need to be (Mustang Dyno). Might as well compare yourself to STX times.
Dave
Last edited by Silencer; May 20, 2011 at 08:10 AM.
Jun 4, 2011, 12:04 AM
#36
06 Evo IX MR, 33K miles, former up north/snow car
-Perrin intake
-JMFab header
-Invidia O2 housing
-DC Sports downpipe w/ Mil.Spec cat
-Perrin catback
256 whp, 258 wtq on a Mustang dyno.
The good news: I gained 67 whp from when the car was stock.
The bad news: I'm still 30+ whp off where I "should" be!
I'm happy about the gains but bummed that the car is still so far behind other STU cars with similar mods. I'm half considering a stock-legal overbore motor rebuild in the offseason
I don't quite recall the exact conversion, but for every 50 psi in your canisters, you are increasing the spring rate by 25 lb. So in reality, you have increased your total spring rate to 710f/910r. On factory tires, that is way too stiff. BSP and SM, your right there! I've tested 400, 450, 500, 550, 600, 650, 700, and 800 front springs and 600, 650, 675, 700, 750, 800, 900 rear. After running 800/900 durning Nationals in Topeka (asphalt and too much roll stiffness), I came to the final conclusion that 650/800 was the best all around for my set-up for both asphalt and concrete (Forbes). I also played with canister pressures and arrived at 125/100 out of the 300psi possible. Once you get the bump and rebound figured out, the Nitrogen pressures along with rear ride height were the main tuning tools I used during events. I actually did a f/r spring swap at one of the Pros between morning and afternoon runs. The car needed an aggressive change from being way to loose. Way too stressful. btw, ZZYZX recommends 700/700. You might consider a slightly stiffer front and rear bar. I used Progress for the rear set to softest of 3 settings. Don't forget to change out specific bushings to PU.
I'm confused - are you saying you settled on 650/800 (springs)+ 120/100 psi (nitrogen), for a total effective rate of
650 + (125 * .5) = 712.5
800 + (100 * .5) = 850
?
I have a WORKS rear bar in the garage. I was waiting for the bushings, which took an unusually long time to ship, but I have them now. In an attempt to keep my tweaking somewhat scientific, I'm going to go out for the next event with the rates, alignment, and nitrogen the same, but with the Dunlops instead of the RE11s, and running the rear shocks higher on the compression per the previous owner's suggestion. (plus another 67 whp!) I'm sure there is time in additional tweaking, but I don't want to change too much stuff at once and have no idea what change did what.
Josh's car is 321 whp on a Dynapack tho. Soooo I still have that excuse
Jun 13, 2011, 06:24 AM
#39
Bump for update! ;-) I ran this weekend in NWOR Pro/PAX class, ended up 7th out of 22.
The 6 ahead of me:
Raglin - 2 time national champion in EP
Scott Hearne - GP national trophy holder
Kevin Lewis - XP national trophy holder
Alex Jones - BSP national trophy holder
Jeff Mabrey - ST national trophy holder
Andrew Palotta - STU national Champion
me - hopeful for 2011 success.....
so there is my post... now back to your car.. ;-)
The 6 ahead of me:
Raglin - 2 time national champion in EP
Scott Hearne - GP national trophy holder
Kevin Lewis - XP national trophy holder
Alex Jones - BSP national trophy holder
Jeff Mabrey - ST national trophy holder
Andrew Palotta - STU national Champion
me - hopeful for 2011 success.....
so there is my post... now back to your car.. ;-)
Jun 13, 2011, 09:05 AM
#40
So, the results are in...
06 Evo IX MR, 33K miles, former up north/snow car
-Perrin intake
-JMFab header
-Invidia O2 housing
-DC Sports downpipe w/ Mil.Spec cat
-Perrin catback
256 whp, 258 wtq on a Mustang dyno.
The good news: I gained 67 whp from when the car was stock.
The bad news: I'm still 30+ whp off where I "should" be!
I'm happy about the gains but bummed that the car is still so far behind other STU cars with similar mods. I'm half considering a stock-legal overbore motor rebuild in the offseason
06 Evo IX MR, 33K miles, former up north/snow car
-Perrin intake
-JMFab header
-Invidia O2 housing
-DC Sports downpipe w/ Mil.Spec cat
-Perrin catback
256 whp, 258 wtq on a Mustang dyno.
The good news: I gained 67 whp from when the car was stock.
The bad news: I'm still 30+ whp off where I "should" be!
I'm happy about the gains but bummed that the car is still so far behind other STU cars with similar mods. I'm half considering a stock-legal overbore motor rebuild in the offseason
Glad you making progress on the modifications and the car is responding well. Hopefully it's something simple causing the overall decrease in power.
Jun 13, 2011, 07:48 PM
#41
Bump for update! ;-) I ran this weekend in NWOR Pro/PAX class, ended up 7th out of 22.
The 6 ahead of me:
Raglin - 2 time national champion in EP
Scott Hearne - GP national trophy holder
Kevin Lewis - XP national trophy holder
Alex Jones - BSP national trophy holder
Jeff Mabrey - ST national trophy holder
Andrew Palotta - STU national Champion
me - hopeful for 2011 success.....
so there is my post... now back to your car.. ;-)
The 6 ahead of me:
Raglin - 2 time national champion in EP
Scott Hearne - GP national trophy holder
Kevin Lewis - XP national trophy holder
Alex Jones - BSP national trophy holder
Jeff Mabrey - ST national trophy holder
Andrew Palotta - STU national Champion
me - hopeful for 2011 success.....
so there is my post... now back to your car.. ;-)
DC doesn't run a Pro class but I would get annihilated there if there was one...
Might have missed this earlier in the thread (I'll go back and look in a min), but have you done a compression and leakdown test? I wouldn't jump to a full rebuild if those are good. Things like cam timing (eg. off a tooth on the pulley) and the mivec map (I assume the tuner would have modified this and noticed if something funky was going on there) can be the cause.
Glad you making progress on the modifications and the car is responding well. Hopefully it's something simple causing the overall decrease in power.
Glad you making progress on the modifications and the car is responding well. Hopefully it's something simple causing the overall decrease in power.
OK, back to the writeups...
Jun 13, 2011, 10:03 PM
#42
So - the car’s got power now. With the wife going out of town on Saturday, I had an opportunity for a doubleheader. All the makings of a good weekend, right?
It’s Friday, Friday,
Gotta get down on Friday,
Everybody’s lookin’ forward to the weekend, weekend
So, my M3’s climate control unit had flaked out (it’s an incredibly common problem) and I was daily driving the Evo this week because temperatures were in the 90’s and it had a working air conditioning system. As I was driving in to work, I noticed the car was stumbling at about 3600 RPM under full throttle in the higher gears. Researching it, it sounded like a spark plug problem, and it was confirmed when I emailed Chad. So after calling around to a couple of Advance Autos and Mitsubishi dealerships, I finally found one that had the OEM sparkplugs. And they only had four, no spares. Whew!
After work I pulled the car in to the garage to do the plugs. I followed this guide here:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ark-plugs.html
The ex-plugs:
No drama. After that, I put the 17x9 SSRs (with 245 Dunlops) that had been sitting in the garage for 2 months, on the car. Clearance was tight in the front but it looked okay... sitting still at least. I had a set of ARP studs and 15mm spacers but hadn’t gotten around to putting them in.
zzzzz
Event #11: CDC @ Bowie, 6-11-2011
So I woke up and went to pull the car out of the garage. It cranks up fine, always a good sign. But, hrm, not moving. It’s like the parking brake is stuck or something. I check the parking brake several times.
I shut it off and research it. Nothing obvious. I go back again and look at the brakes and see that it’s the wheel being stuck on the caliper. Crap.
So at this point, I can put my OEM BBS’s back on with the RE11s, or I can put the studs in, get to the autocross late and beg to be tech’d. Since this was a more low key non-SCCA event, and there was an SCCA event the next day, I decided to put the studs in and risk missing Saturday’s autox. It was more important to have the Dunlops for Fedex than to run another event on the 'stones stretched on 8" wheels.
Dependencies...
I pulled up the instructions found on the intertubes. I lifted the front left wheel off the ground, removed the brakes, and then tapped out the first stud. I then went to rotate the hub to knock the next one out... and realized that wasn’t going to work since the front right wheel was still on the ground. Right.
So in order to get both wheels in the air, I had to put the brakes back on, put the OEM front wheels back on, and then get the car onto ramps. OK... car on ramps. I started on the passenger side this time. After getting all five studs out, I was able to pull two and a half of the ARP studs in before my Goodyear electric impact (former Black Friday Pep Boys purchase) died. Well ****. I can either charge this thing, do another 2-3 studs, and then charge it again, and hope there’s enough charge in the thing not to die before I need to sleep... or I can just buy a compressor
With the Evo in the air, I had to take the M3, not the most practical vehicle in the world. After some money, half an hour, and telling the idiots at Sears that I didn’t want the extended warranty (FIVE TIMES! NO, REALLY, I do NOT want the extended warranty!) The compressor fit, though barely... who says coupes aren’t practical?
I should have lowered the windows for the picture, stupid tint.
Next step was figuring out how to use the compressor. After fixing the initial leaks with teflon tape I did manage at one point to remove the wrong thing from the wrong hose and have the hose flailing all over the place. I eventually got it sorted. After plugging away at the studs for a while pulling them through, I was able to get them all through.
But, in order to put the calipers back on, I had to take the pads out. So I punched the little pins out, and the outside pad and the spring clip fell though. So I slid the calipers back over the rotors and then put the pads back in with the spring clip. Now that the studs were good in the front, I could put the front SSRs back on, this time with spacers.
I went to test drive the car, check for noises, that sort of thing. Just as I did that... it started raining. So I had to do the test drive with the windows up which makes it a lot harder to hear stuff. I was pretty sure I was getting some noise from the front right but couldn’t quite pin it down. The misfire was gone though so that was progress.
After a break to eat, the rain stopped and I went out for another test drive. Definite squealing from the front right. After taking the wheel off, and checking EvoM, I realized that I had installed the anti squeal clip upside down... which had transformed it to a squeal clip After flipping it, the car was quiet again. Thank god! I can finally run this thing...
It’s Friday, Friday,
Gotta get down on Friday,
Everybody’s lookin’ forward to the weekend, weekend
So, my M3’s climate control unit had flaked out (it’s an incredibly common problem) and I was daily driving the Evo this week because temperatures were in the 90’s and it had a working air conditioning system. As I was driving in to work, I noticed the car was stumbling at about 3600 RPM under full throttle in the higher gears. Researching it, it sounded like a spark plug problem, and it was confirmed when I emailed Chad. So after calling around to a couple of Advance Autos and Mitsubishi dealerships, I finally found one that had the OEM sparkplugs. And they only had four, no spares. Whew!
After work I pulled the car in to the garage to do the plugs. I followed this guide here:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ark-plugs.html
The ex-plugs:
No drama. After that, I put the 17x9 SSRs (with 245 Dunlops) that had been sitting in the garage for 2 months, on the car. Clearance was tight in the front but it looked okay... sitting still at least. I had a set of ARP studs and 15mm spacers but hadn’t gotten around to putting them in.
zzzzz
Event #11: CDC @ Bowie, 6-11-2011
So I woke up and went to pull the car out of the garage. It cranks up fine, always a good sign. But, hrm, not moving. It’s like the parking brake is stuck or something. I check the parking brake several times.
I shut it off and research it. Nothing obvious. I go back again and look at the brakes and see that it’s the wheel being stuck on the caliper. Crap.
So at this point, I can put my OEM BBS’s back on with the RE11s, or I can put the studs in, get to the autocross late and beg to be tech’d. Since this was a more low key non-SCCA event, and there was an SCCA event the next day, I decided to put the studs in and risk missing Saturday’s autox. It was more important to have the Dunlops for Fedex than to run another event on the 'stones stretched on 8" wheels.
Dependencies...
I pulled up the instructions found on the intertubes. I lifted the front left wheel off the ground, removed the brakes, and then tapped out the first stud. I then went to rotate the hub to knock the next one out... and realized that wasn’t going to work since the front right wheel was still on the ground. Right.
So in order to get both wheels in the air, I had to put the brakes back on, put the OEM front wheels back on, and then get the car onto ramps. OK... car on ramps. I started on the passenger side this time. After getting all five studs out, I was able to pull two and a half of the ARP studs in before my Goodyear electric impact (former Black Friday Pep Boys purchase) died. Well ****. I can either charge this thing, do another 2-3 studs, and then charge it again, and hope there’s enough charge in the thing not to die before I need to sleep... or I can just buy a compressor
With the Evo in the air, I had to take the M3, not the most practical vehicle in the world. After some money, half an hour, and telling the idiots at Sears that I didn’t want the extended warranty (FIVE TIMES! NO, REALLY, I do NOT want the extended warranty!) The compressor fit, though barely... who says coupes aren’t practical?
I should have lowered the windows for the picture, stupid tint.
Next step was figuring out how to use the compressor. After fixing the initial leaks with teflon tape I did manage at one point to remove the wrong thing from the wrong hose and have the hose flailing all over the place. I eventually got it sorted. After plugging away at the studs for a while pulling them through, I was able to get them all through.
But, in order to put the calipers back on, I had to take the pads out. So I punched the little pins out, and the outside pad and the spring clip fell though. So I slid the calipers back over the rotors and then put the pads back in with the spring clip. Now that the studs were good in the front, I could put the front SSRs back on, this time with spacers.
I went to test drive the car, check for noises, that sort of thing. Just as I did that... it started raining. So I had to do the test drive with the windows up which makes it a lot harder to hear stuff. I was pretty sure I was getting some noise from the front right but couldn’t quite pin it down. The misfire was gone though so that was progress.
After a break to eat, the rain stopped and I went out for another test drive. Definite squealing from the front right. After taking the wheel off, and checking EvoM, I realized that I had installed the anti squeal clip upside down... which had transformed it to a squeal clip
After flipping it, the car was quiet again. Thank god! I can finally run this thing...
Jun 14, 2011, 04:59 AM
#43
Event #11 - I mean it this time - WDCR/SCCA @ Fedex, 6-12-2011
Setup (new stuff in bold):
Moton Clubsports
front: 2/7 compression, 3/7 rebound
rear: 6/6 (?) compression, 3/7 rebound
600/800 springs
-3 / -1, 0 toe
245-40-17 Dunlop Z1s on 17x9 SSR Type C RS, 15mm spacers in the front
36/36 psi
Conditions: high 80s and sunny
For this event Ben was codriving in STU and another friend of mine who hadn't autoxed in a while wanted to autocross too, so he signed up for BSP.
The course was a little tighter than most Fedex courses including a fairly long slalom section. I had intended to do 3 walks, but even though we got there early we barely made two. The line at registration had been pretty intense and that had thrown things off. I just tried to remember the sections that looked tricky since we didn't have the MaxQData setup on us.
First heat, BSP runs but STU works. My friend Jake ended up 3rd out of 7 among the actual BSP cars (there was an FSP Civic running BSP for some reason that was 2nd out of 8) which was kind of an encouraging sign.
Our heat started. I went out first. The car felt very fast - despite the general tightness of the course there weren't any sections that really set the car up to be laggy. The car had grip everywhere, maybe a little pushy steady state but not too bad and I certainly wasn't on the ragged edge, just adjusting to an extra 67 whp. I came back with a 51.8 +1 because I had hit a cone in the top right corner entering the long slalom. Shane (codriving Josh's STi) then came back with a 50.2. So, 1.6 seconds behind in raw time after 1 run, plenty of work to do. Ben went out for his first run and got a 54.5. Josh ran a 51.1.
2nd run - more aggressive, but no help... 52.0 +1. I had hit a cone in the slalom. One other section in particular was throwing me off - a sweeper that felt like it was constant radius but it wasn't. So I was staying tight to it, and 2/3 of the way through it, it was pushing me back out. I also blew the showcase turn pretty badly braking too late into it, lost a good chunk of time there. Stupid sealant! Ben got down to a 53.6. Shane did not improve and Josh got down to a 50.6.
So after 2 runs I was in 8th place, but I had the 3rd fastest raw time in the class. I knew I had to get down a clean time so I backed off a little on my 3rd run in the aggressive spots and was very deliberate in the hard braking zones. 51.9, but clean this time - 3rd place. I had managed to convert some of my light braking into just throttle lifts on this run and the car had still stuck so I knew there was tons of available grip that I was still not using. Ben almost spun but still had a 54.3.
4th run I just wanted to combine the aggressiveness of run 2, minus the blown braking zones, and the staying-on-the-gas'ness of run 3. I felt like I had had a pretty strong run, and came across the line expecting a 51.0 but instead was greeted by another, slightly faster 51.9. I think by attempting to get by with just lifting instead of braking, I had spent too much time being careful. I also found out that the first really hard lefthander (top right corner of the course) that Ben hadn't been braking for it and I could have carried more speed there. That definitely would have shown up in the datalogger. Ah well. I was still 3rd, until an E46 M3 ran a 51.7 to put me into 4th (doh). Josh got down to a 50.4 and Ben got down to a 53.0.
Overall the car felt very good. Not in lag hell anywhere, mostly neutral and very good in transitions. And the tires still have plenty of good runs left in them (I bought them used, with the wheels - I think they had 10 events on them or so - so for a Dunlop they are just getting warmed up.) It's still a little bit pushy in the steady state stuff, so I'll probably put that WORKS rear bar on for the next event just to see how it feels. I think the car has a lot of grip that I'm not using right now and it's going to take some seat time to really get comfortable chucking it around.
Oh and the anthracite SSRs, which had previously been on a graphite car and then a black car, definitely look best on silver
No video... no pics yet but there should be some coming. In the meantime, here's a video from the 2nd place driver in DS (2011 WRX):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xurTdqNNXsM
Setup (new stuff in bold):
Moton Clubsports
front: 2/7 compression, 3/7 rebound
rear: 6/6 (?) compression, 3/7 rebound
600/800 springs
-3 / -1, 0 toe
245-40-17 Dunlop Z1s on 17x9 SSR Type C RS, 15mm spacers in the front
36/36 psi
Conditions: high 80s and sunny
For this event Ben was codriving in STU and another friend of mine who hadn't autoxed in a while wanted to autocross too, so he signed up for BSP.
The course was a little tighter than most Fedex courses including a fairly long slalom section. I had intended to do 3 walks, but even though we got there early we barely made two. The line at registration had been pretty intense and that had thrown things off. I just tried to remember the sections that looked tricky since we didn't have the MaxQData setup on us.
First heat, BSP runs but STU works. My friend Jake ended up 3rd out of 7 among the actual BSP cars (there was an FSP Civic running BSP for some reason that was 2nd out of 8) which was kind of an encouraging sign.
Our heat started. I went out first. The car felt very fast - despite the general tightness of the course there weren't any sections that really set the car up to be laggy. The car had grip everywhere, maybe a little pushy steady state but not too bad and I certainly wasn't on the ragged edge, just adjusting to an extra 67 whp. I came back with a 51.8 +1 because I had hit a cone in the top right corner entering the long slalom. Shane (codriving Josh's STi) then came back with a 50.2. So, 1.6 seconds behind in raw time after 1 run, plenty of work to do. Ben went out for his first run and got a 54.5. Josh ran a 51.1.
2nd run - more aggressive, but no help... 52.0 +1. I had hit a cone in the slalom. One other section in particular was throwing me off - a sweeper that felt like it was constant radius but it wasn't. So I was staying tight to it, and 2/3 of the way through it, it was pushing me back out. I also blew the showcase turn pretty badly braking too late into it, lost a good chunk of time there. Stupid sealant! Ben got down to a 53.6. Shane did not improve and Josh got down to a 50.6.
So after 2 runs I was in 8th place, but I had the 3rd fastest raw time in the class. I knew I had to get down a clean time so I backed off a little on my 3rd run in the aggressive spots and was very deliberate in the hard braking zones. 51.9, but clean this time - 3rd place. I had managed to convert some of my light braking into just throttle lifts on this run and the car had still stuck so I knew there was tons of available grip that I was still not using. Ben almost spun but still had a 54.3.
4th run I just wanted to combine the aggressiveness of run 2, minus the blown braking zones, and the staying-on-the-gas'ness of run 3. I felt like I had had a pretty strong run, and came across the line expecting a 51.0 but instead was greeted by another, slightly faster 51.9. I think by attempting to get by with just lifting instead of braking, I had spent too much time being careful. I also found out that the first really hard lefthander (top right corner of the course) that Ben hadn't been braking for it and I could have carried more speed there. That definitely would have shown up in the datalogger. Ah well. I was still 3rd, until an E46 M3 ran a 51.7 to put me into 4th (doh). Josh got down to a 50.4 and Ben got down to a 53.0.
Overall the car felt very good. Not in lag hell anywhere, mostly neutral and very good in transitions. And the tires still have plenty of good runs left in them (I bought them used, with the wheels - I think they had 10 events on them or so - so for a Dunlop they are just getting warmed up.) It's still a little bit pushy in the steady state stuff, so I'll probably put that WORKS rear bar on for the next event just to see how it feels. I think the car has a lot of grip that I'm not using right now and it's going to take some seat time to really get comfortable chucking it around.
Oh and the anthracite SSRs, which had previously been on a graphite car and then a black car, definitely look best on silver
No video... no pics yet but there should be some coming. In the meantime, here's a video from the 2nd place driver in DS (2011 WRX):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xurTdqNNXsM
Last edited by Butt Dyno; Jun 14, 2011 at 05:03 AM.
Jun 15, 2011, 07:47 AM
#44
Evolving Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Maryland
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Danny just put up pics. Here's a decent one with Ben driving. Unfortunately, he must have missed you off the start and only got some long shots while you were driving. But we only need to see the car anyways, not your ugly mug.
Car looks good John, didn't get a chance to really watch it on course though since Shane was driving right after you. We need to do a car swap during fun runs one day and see how much of a difference there is between the cars. But if you lose to a BMW again, we may just have to start making you pay up $5 each time, kind of like the classic Simmons bets.
Car looks good John, didn't get a chance to really watch it on course though since Shane was driving right after you. We need to do a car swap during fun runs one day and see how much of a difference there is between the cars. But if you lose to a BMW again, we may just have to start making you pay up $5 each time, kind of like the classic Simmons bets.
Jun 15, 2011, 12:49 PM
#45
Evolving Member
