Suggestions for braking and aero
Aug 21, 2011, 09:35 PM
#16
I was previously running stock discs and Project Mu B-Force pads (0-500°F), but after two laps I started noticing fade and considerably less bite once warm.
Zhong is right about the brake ducting if you aren't running it already. I picked-up Boltz.' old set-up using jid2's nozzles, I just need to put them on. Should be running them next year to help with cooling.
I'm not pushing my brakes that hard yet, but will be next season. The calipers just started to turn colors.
I've heard good things about all of the above, but the cost difference and weight between them drove me (get it) to try the DBA 5000 rotors. Here was my original thread: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ggestions.html
For me, noise wasn't something I really cared about so I can't help you there, Warrtalon. I will say that my ET800s make little to no noise on the street. They do give off some noise when lightly applying the brake at slow (<10mph) speeds.
The Racing Brake ET800 have a lower operating temperature (100°-1400°F), which makes them more acceptable for street use when attempting to brake hard when cold. I've heard that the Racing Brake pads perform very poorly if you exceed their operating temperature.
The ET-300/500/800 are NOT track compound brake pads. We have used the ET-500 and the ET-800 on track with great results...PROVIDED...you do not exceed the temp capability of the compound. Once you exceed the capability of the compound the pad will wear VERY quickly. The full weight Evo IX MR can still get an average of 2 track days (on R-comps) from a set of ET-800 (4/5 20min track sessions a day) with a driver that is used to the ET-800 pad. If you are looking for a dedicated TRACK pad that is much more aggressive than the ET-800, Hawk and others have great selections, and with the more aggressive compounds there are other issues that will probably start--warping/cracking rotors-Boiling brake fluid- possible total brake system loss from overheating. (not fun at all). BUT for 85% of all the Evo drivers out there the ET-pad line will work just fine with minimal headaches for the driver. MPG
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...-dd-track.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...rake-pads.html
Since I have yet to have a problem, I'm probably not pushing the car hard enough. The Hawk DTX70s operate at 400°-1600°F and the PF01s operate at 167°-2000°, so keep that in mind.
You may also want to explore EBC Yellow (200°-1650°F) or EBC Blue (300°-1650°F) pads, those are mentioned quite a bit when talking about cars that see both the track and the street.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by golgo13; Aug 21, 2011 at 09:52 PM.
Aug 22, 2011, 04:02 AM
#17
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We run the Essex kit on our 08 STi.
It is very consistent.
W/ Ferodo DS1.11 pads (they have a bigger radial depth than most pads that are 7420 WW shape like that) - that only cost about $200/set - no fade and great brakes.
Pads lasted 9-10 hours although some time was on street tires. (2:12-2:16 at VIR) Modest power.
The rotors are full floating without springs/etc - so expect rattle.
The kit is roughly the same size as your stock brakes - but a pretty good jump in performance. The caliper has many features - and the pad cost alone will eventually pay for it.
-Ken
It is very consistent.
W/ Ferodo DS1.11 pads (they have a bigger radial depth than most pads that are 7420 WW shape like that) - that only cost about $200/set - no fade and great brakes.
Pads lasted 9-10 hours although some time was on street tires. (2:12-2:16 at VIR) Modest power.
The rotors are full floating without springs/etc - so expect rattle.
The kit is roughly the same size as your stock brakes - but a pretty good jump in performance. The caliper has many features - and the pad cost alone will eventually pay for it.
-Ken
Aug 22, 2011, 09:41 AM
#19
Thanks, Pure.
Are there any comparble kits?
- I would be happy to use the Hawk DTC70, and my "street" driving is minimal anyway, so I would leave them on. I mainly need to get to/from the track.
- What's the deal with shims? I don't recall hearing about those before.
- I think I've been using Motul Blue or something like that for fluid.
- I used to have the Forge Brake Duct Kit when they sponsored me, and it was pretty cool, but I eventually noticed that my front tires had worn huge holes in the ducting, so I took them out. I may have not installed them properly, though. On the Essex site for the AP kit, they actually recommend the Forge and AMS brake duct kits, so those are good suggestions by you.
Are there any comparble kits?
Motul required bleeds in between sessions and had a squishy brake pedal at times.
Depends on your wallet , and how long your sessions are if this is worthwhile to you.
Also i was able to ditch my forge ducts after switching to that fluid and 2 piece curved vane open slot rotors from racebrake.
Aug 22, 2011, 10:20 AM
#21
If the fluid makes that much difference, then I will use it. Earlier, the suggestion was RBF60. Any comparisons there?
How did you know you could get rid of the ducts? Why did you not just keep them in addition to the fluid and new rotors?
I've already gotten some HTC70s en route, and I was going to use the RBF600, but I'll go with Endless if it's worth doing so.
Can someone explain the shims or point me to a good resource? I'm happy to read.
How did you know you could get rid of the ducts? Why did you not just keep them in addition to the fluid and new rotors?
I've already gotten some HTC70s en route, and I was going to use the RBF600, but I'll go with Endless if it's worth doing so.
Can someone explain the shims or point me to a good resource? I'm happy to read.
Aug 22, 2011, 10:36 AM
#22
Was curious about aero as well for next season. After watching how well the Cyber Evo does in the World Time Attack series, is there any real reason to fab up some elaborate/custom front splitter/tray vs buying the Voltex stuff? Other than price, is it really worth it doing something unique?
Aug 22, 2011, 11:27 AM
#23
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Welcome back Warr!
As Kevin stated earlier, we run Perf. Fric 2 piece rotors, HTC70s F/R, binary ducts, amsoil fluid, and Ti shims. Fresh fluid is a must, but should last the whole weekend. We've not spent any points for aero in TTA, we need all of the power, grip, and suspension that we can get to keep up with the Z06s.
Good Luck out there!
As Kevin stated earlier, we run Perf. Fric 2 piece rotors, HTC70s F/R, binary ducts, amsoil fluid, and Ti shims. Fresh fluid is a must, but should last the whole weekend. We've not spent any points for aero in TTA, we need all of the power, grip, and suspension that we can get to keep up with the Z06s.
Good Luck out there!
Aug 22, 2011, 12:21 PM
#25
When brakes are under stress and working hard, they get extremely hot. The longer you are on the brakes (i.e., entering a corner from a long straight), the more stress and heat that is generated. This heat has tremendous effects on the effectiveness of the brakes as well as on the brake components themselves. Rubber, for example, can quickly melt in that situation, or in any heavy braking scenario. The heat created from the friction of the hard-working brakes can actually boil the hydraulic brake fluid, which even further reduces stopping power. Heat is transferred from the rotors and pads directly into the brake fluid by means of the caliper pistons. As the fluid boils, it releases air into the brake lines which leads to brake fade and forces the brake pedal to go to the floor instead of maintaining hydraulic pressure to move the caliper pistons. This where titanium brake shims come in.
Unlike most production cars, many race cars have expensive brakes that have titanium caliper pistons. Titanium is an element that has very low thermal conductivity. This means it is very effective as a heat insulator rather than a dissipater. In other words, you do not want the caliper pistons to transfer heat (in this case to the brake fluid), you want them to work as a heat shield to minimize the heat transfer and keep the brake fluid as cool as possible.
Since most of us drive production cars, our brake caliper pistons contain aluminum and steel. Both of which have much higher thermal conductivity than titanium (8 times for steel and almost 20 times more for aluminum when compared to titanium) and allow a greater amount of heat to transfer to the brake fluid.
Titanium brake shims work like heat shields to prevent the heat of the braking effort from affecting the other brake parts. The thin titanium shim is placed between the back of the brake pad and the pistons to prevent heat transfer to the brake fluid.
For spirited drivers, cars that see the track or in conditions where braking is crucial, titanium shims are a very cost effective option to maintain brake effectiveness and performance. In addition, maintaining cooler temperatures for brake parts ensures a longer life and less need for brake fluid changes. Rebuilding brake calipers can be very expensive.
Unlike most production cars, many race cars have expensive brakes that have titanium caliper pistons. Titanium is an element that has very low thermal conductivity. This means it is very effective as a heat insulator rather than a dissipater. In other words, you do not want the caliper pistons to transfer heat (in this case to the brake fluid), you want them to work as a heat shield to minimize the heat transfer and keep the brake fluid as cool as possible.
Since most of us drive production cars, our brake caliper pistons contain aluminum and steel. Both of which have much higher thermal conductivity than titanium (8 times for steel and almost 20 times more for aluminum when compared to titanium) and allow a greater amount of heat to transfer to the brake fluid.
Titanium brake shims work like heat shields to prevent the heat of the braking effort from affecting the other brake parts. The thin titanium shim is placed between the back of the brake pad and the pistons to prevent heat transfer to the brake fluid.
For spirited drivers, cars that see the track or in conditions where braking is crucial, titanium shims are a very cost effective option to maintain brake effectiveness and performance. In addition, maintaining cooler temperatures for brake parts ensures a longer life and less need for brake fluid changes. Rebuilding brake calipers can be very expensive.
Aug 22, 2011, 01:20 PM
#26
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Ti is a poor thermal conductor, and "insulator" like for metal. Using the shims makes the heat transfer rate to the calipers lower.
I like the Girodisc 2 piece rotors, PF are nice also. They do a big part in keeping the brakes cooler. Ducts should be used for sure, routing the tubes as best you can - and yes they will need to be replaced as they get holes in them from time to time. Castrol SRF is the end all in brake fluid.
For me and my driving and my local tracks, Girodisc rotors, Raybestos ST43's in the front and DS2500's in the rear, with ducts and either Motul or ATE fluid has been great. Right now I have ST43's in the rear and they are so loud and take a handful of hard laps to get up to temp, the DS2500's were fine back there and less hassle/annoying.
If I needed big brakes I would look at the Performance Friction BBK.
For Aero you will need a splitter to balance a big rear wing. Kognition and Aero Motion Static would be my choice if I bought a wing.
I like the Girodisc 2 piece rotors, PF are nice also. They do a big part in keeping the brakes cooler. Ducts should be used for sure, routing the tubes as best you can - and yes they will need to be replaced as they get holes in them from time to time. Castrol SRF is the end all in brake fluid.
For me and my driving and my local tracks, Girodisc rotors, Raybestos ST43's in the front and DS2500's in the rear, with ducts and either Motul or ATE fluid has been great. Right now I have ST43's in the rear and they are so loud and take a handful of hard laps to get up to temp, the DS2500's were fine back there and less hassle/annoying.
If I needed big brakes I would look at the Performance Friction BBK.
For Aero you will need a splitter to balance a big rear wing. Kognition and Aero Motion Static would be my choice if I bought a wing.
Last edited by jid2; Aug 22, 2011 at 01:23 PM.
Aug 22, 2011, 01:31 PM
#27
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If the fluid makes that much difference, then I will use it. Earlier, the suggestion was RBF60. Any comparisons there?
How did you know you could get rid of the ducts? Why did you not just keep them in addition to the fluid and new rotors?
I've already gotten some HTC70s en route, and I was going to use the RBF600, but I'll go with Endless if it's worth doing so.
Can someone explain the shims or point me to a good resource? I'm happy to read.
How did you know you could get rid of the ducts? Why did you not just keep them in addition to the fluid and new rotors?
I've already gotten some HTC70s en route, and I was going to use the RBF600, but I'll go with Endless if it's worth doing so.
Can someone explain the shims or point me to a good resource? I'm happy to read.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/se...ck-review.html
Aug 22, 2011, 02:09 PM
#29
If the fluid makes that much difference, then I will use it. Earlier, the suggestion was RBF60. Any comparisons there?
How did you know you could get rid of the ducts? Why did you not just keep them in addition to the fluid and new rotors?
I've already gotten some HTC70s en route, and I was going to use the RBF600, but I'll go with Endless if it's worth doing so.
Can someone explain the shims or point me to a good resource? I'm happy to read.
How did you know you could get rid of the ducts? Why did you not just keep them in addition to the fluid and new rotors?
I've already gotten some HTC70s en route, and I was going to use the RBF600, but I'll go with Endless if it's worth doing so.
Can someone explain the shims or point me to a good resource? I'm happy to read.
I have never run RBF600 I could be wrong but in my research i think this fluid also required Bleeding in between sessions.
I didnt keep them because on a car that is driven to and from the track simple is often better. I focus most of my car around that concept and it works well and produces great results.
My ducts kept getting ripped to **** , Im sure Autox wears them the quickest as you get close to full lock at some points , If your strickly road race they wont be as bad.
I tried back to back at that same track with and without them after using my before mentioned brake upgrades and saw zero fade issues, And have not been using them for the past 16 months.
Im also using the PFC 01 pad which has some of the highest operating temp. of any pad on the market, They also sound like a freight train if you DD them.
My car is an RS 3150 W\O me 390-440whp for track duty, and has front APR splitter and custom aluminum rear diffuser stock 8 wing, The rear diffuser made a noticable difference at high speeds.
JID mentioned Castrol SRF i used this as well back to back with the endless (both fresh flushes) and IMO the Endless had better pedal feel when hot , And in hindsight has stayed fresher in the brake system longer .
Endless RF650 Is number 1 in my book
Castrol SRF is a close 2nd
You cant go wrong with either unless your trying to save some cash.
I didnt know you before but welcome back apparantly!!!
