I'm quoting Mike and Robi's responses from Leet's results thread while using the 7670 EFR. Mike is not writing directly to you, but to anyone who stated those particular things...which includes you.

I would question your source as to the failure mode being accurate, given the properties of said material. Who exactly is this "source" of information. A person who is a vendor of BW products or someone who is working in EFR division for Borg Warner? I suggest you call to confirm the failure mode with your source prior to posting it here. Non-supported claims are just evidence of product bashing... and since BW EFR/Full-race are the retailers... that's pretty close to vendor bashing unless you have real evidence.

A 56# per minute turbo will hit your sub 500whp on 93 octane... Dave's shown FP Red's to do that on his heart breaker dyno. Sizing the compressor to make that and then backing that with the lightest fastest spooling CHRA and rotating assembly (for static spool AND a significant improvement in transient response... the 7064 is the turbo that best fits your requirements based on what you have said here.

Granted it's not available (like dave said, it's a moot point) so you should probably run the next best thing.... what Dave said.

 

BW isn't a vendor here and I never mentioned Full Race. My source is a vendor of Borg Warner, same guy that informed me of the problem with their supply being because of the Tsunami and the wheels being made there and the problems with casting the turbine housings. He wanted to get me some turbo's to try both times I've contacted him, both times now they have not been available. Today he was informing me of why there is a supply problem and the failure of the turbine wheels.

Don't be surprised, some guys are actually straight shooters while others wouldn't mention a problem if every single one of them failed.......I'll take what he told me as fact over "NEVER HAS THERE BEEN ANY FAILURE." Everything fails eventually.

I asked Robert if he has a used HTA82 around he could send me. I'd like to throw it on my car with the .63 just to look for myself how it would work on this current combination, which of course has nothing to do with the OP. I got off track for sure.

 

I've been in contact with someone certainly closer to the manufacturing floor of these turbochargers and the turbine wheel failures have not been from heat, but from overspeed. I'd question any end of line salesman's account of failure rates of manufacturer's products. I also wouldn't make such a claim without saying who said it, and even if it's true what's the harm? You know? It's a bold claim to state without actually backing it up or quoting your source.

Who are you quoting here? Just to play devil's advocate: How about cyclically loading a steel beam an infinite number of times well below the yield? Will it fail eventually?

 

Can we get back on topic here? This is descending into a pissing contest.

 

I haven't looked into the HTA82, I did a bit of seaching and I'm not clear is it the same as an FP Black? Or T3 version of the black? ball bearing? What kind of spool and power on a 2.3 on pump gas would you expect?

 

R/T, you are going your normal route, I'm done with our discussion as it's going down hill already. I think regardless of heat or over speeding, at least we are on the same page, they are coming apart. I haven't blown up a T3 from over speeding one yet and the topic started based on the "on paper great reliability" you are touting.

ktk, the HTA82 is the first HTA turbo Robert did, it's a 59mm inducer compressor wheel that takes place of the standard GT35r compressor. There is another turbo that I was reminded of last night too that is fantastic, the HTA3076. I did a test on that a few years back and the spool up was good, top end was good. I believe the test was done on pump gas and a 2 liter, not a stroker like this thread is mostly about. Here's a link to FP's site and there is a copy of a dyno sheet from 2008 in there:

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...e=Lancer-Turbo

 

You still haven't provided a source for your claims & you're quoting things that haven't been said.

I fail to see how you have a sound arguement.

"My old ways/normal route" - as in stand on technical leg and have a discussion supported by logic, reason, engineering, and physics? haha

 

Would you like to recommend a turbo for the OP? I did after having a thorough & civil discussion with Dave.

 

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of just beating one point over and over and over and over. My dragging someone else into the thread is moot. He says heat, you say over speeding. I will accept either one, point is FAILURE. I don't care if it's heat or over speeding. I brought up what he told me based on you thumping your chest on their reliability and engineering compared to other turbos. Based on what I was told and you were told they fail too, so that's all that matters.

 

Point is that your failure mode isn't happening. You said it as if it was factual evidence to discredit the EFR's reliability. You won't name your source, so we can only assume you're making it up.

Turbine wheels failing from overspeeding them is misuse.
Turbine wheels failing from heat is a manufacturer's oversight.

They are certainly far different failure modes in terms of coming to a conclusion whether the EFR a reliable product or not.

 

R/TErnie's quote: "I've been in contact with someone certainly closer to the manufacturing floor of these turbochargers and the turbine wheel failures have not been from heat, but from overspeed."

OK R/T, good enough for me. You are beating a dead horse. I don't care why they failed or if my source or your source is more accurate. The point is the turbine wheels have failed, end of argument. Sheesh.

P.S., I just asked if I could bring this other guy into this and he asked me not to. So it ain't happening.

 

I asked Robert from FP to take a look at this thread. He can't post on here and asked me to add this to the conversation:

"Gamma Ti Turbines are neato, they are lighter than inconel and they like heat. The part of a Gama Ti Turbine that doesnt like the heat is the braze material used to hold the ceramic turbine head onto the shaft. This bonding material does not have the same temp resistance of the turbine head, and this is the weakness of the TiAl turbine wheels. MHI has been trying this off and on for about a decade, and it is never used very succesfully becuase it is not possible to control the operating temperature of the exhaust gas in all race cars, some will push harder than others, run hotter and fail the bonding material between the ceramic turbine head and the steel shaft. It is simply not possible to weld a steel shaft to something with the characteristics of a coffee mug." "MHI TiAl turbines fail with very predictable regularity in higher temp applications, not to mention that they do not tolerate a broken spark plug electrode passing thru the blades at full tilt very well either and tend to shatter rather than nick"

Also since I am all motivated right now he is putting together a turbo to stomp a mud hole in the *** of the EFR turbo that's been used for data in this thread.....as soon as I get it I will get it on the dyno with boost charts.

 

Go get 'em Dave.

Robert,
Since BW is using a proprietary friction welding method... that failure mode DNE.

 

Nice write up on EFR turbos for those like myself that weren't aware of their intricacies...

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...ature-set.aspx

 

I don't personally see Robert going on and on with this but this is what he asked me to post:

"I dont work at BW so I dont know what they do, there are only so many ways to attachs a steel rod to a coffe cup. MHI has tried a few differnt methods as well, all have the problem, the turbine head and the shaft are stronger than the attachement of the two."