AlwaysinBoost

iTrader: (17)

^ agree 100%.

I've been preaching this for years (it seems). the stock motor is more than adequate in the power department for track days. all more power does is make you use more consumables (brakes, tires, fuel). Cooling, better brakes, suspension and most importantly TECHNIQUE will get you around the track faster than adding power will.

David Buschur

iTrader: (53)

That was going to be my suggestion

Robevo RS

iTrader: (16)

Its an easy job from the bottom. For me cost like 500 with labor and oil change - parts
Cheap insurance and VERY common in rally Evos.

Well it is usa not eu so I guess different prefetences.

Side note, not the hp makes really neccesery to maintain the engine.
More like the way the driver use it or the purpose it was build.
Rally engines never see 350 whp and still they get abused a lot. So with a recommendation based on hp, I should
Do only a same maintanace as any other 350 hp car... Well that is not a case , not even close.

Anyway it was one suggestion only, you guys do what evert you think is a best. That is why motorsport is so colorfull

Rob

getsideways

iTrader: (18)

If ALL more power does is use more consumables i should probably go back to the Low 300whp range.

Ive tried different power levels at the track on the same day.. it makes a ridiculous difference in lap times.
I come from autox where it doesnt matter as much so maybe thats why it seems so blatant from my POV.

Either way Im not really looking to add a ton more power then ive been tracking at for the past couple seasons, im looking to furthur track records, continue to drive my car to and from the track, Broaden the powerband, enable more low end torque, and increase the reliability over stock.

I would love to have a 2.3rpm engine maybe dave will send me one to test, i havent seen a reliable one in a car that does what i do yet though.

Im trying my best to make this cost effective as well, i wish i had the confidence to build my own as JID did but sadly im too scared to wreck stuff and would rather a shop do the work for me.

Balrok

iTrader: (15)

Ah cool. We weren't saying it was wrong by any means, just curious what data there was surrounding it. I doubt EU or US or JP engines themselves are any different when it comes to the block. But ya i'd agree the rally likely sees more oil starvation then most which likely leads to the bearing wear. You guys can't seem to keep the wheels on the ground .

Robevo RS

iTrader: (16)

i would think the bottom of the engine is entirely a same. Mechanics around rally cars ,just tend to see a lots of bearing wear.
Even on tarmac rally countries like where i come from. So i am guessing is not a big deal to put around $500 after every 5 race just to be safe My gas + food cost almost that much /race.

AlwaysinBoost

iTrader: (17)

my broad generalization probably should have been more localized. Power does have its uses, especially on high HP tracks with long straights and few turns. THere is a point of deminishing returns, though. Too much power will no doubt cause you to over-brake, corner slower and/or have to roll into the throttle later when coming out of the corner. all of which will slow you down overall. I've seen it happen more than a few times and anyone who's spend anytime on track will probably agree.

If you want to go fast you need to do three things

corner faster
brake less
accelerate sooner

improving only one area (adding HP) will get only get you so far and can actually be detremental to lap times if you aren't already using the power you currently have to the fullest. I would first look at all the 'free' mods you can do that would help, like removing weight. Removing weight is HUGE in road racing since it will help you accomplish all three of the above. Sticky tires are also another option, but like you, I actually prefer street tires for several reasons.

If you think you're at the limit of your current setup I would suggest giving the keys to a more experienced driver (who you totally trust with your car) and see what they can do. More often than not, if the driver is more skilled than you are, you'll see there is more low hanging fruit then you realize.

KevinD

iTrader: (56)

quite the opposite... rally cars on dirt dont see anywhere near the Gees a road race car will see, so oil starvation isn't going to be nearly as much of a problem as what you would see on a road race car. and even rallying it, i can assure you your not driving it any harder then anyone road racing. maybe suspension, tires and underbody parts take a beating, but engine wont be any worse, and brakes likely less.

tarmac may be close in Gees to a road race car, but i still don't think its going to be as much ,as the pavement isn't nearly well prepared for cornering at high speeds.

robevo RS, i would say you are throwing away 500 dollars every 5 races if your replacing rod bearings that often. no way are you beating on them more then we are, and ours last much longer then that. in fact, as long as we keep them full on oil and do proper maintenance, i havent had one spin a bearing on the track yet from driving it to hard. we aren't making WRC torque levels so bearings will last.

getsideways

iTrader: (18)

You see i take a different approach to Track days\timed events, I completely enjoy my car on the street and always want to be able to in the future.

This causes me to keep a full interior, stereo, AC, I pull out my backseats and being an 06 RS am probably around 3050, half my mods are lighter (Battery, Rims, 2 piece rotors, exhaust, clutch..... ECT) While others (rear undertray, intercooler, rear spoiler.....) add weight.
Ive owned\driven several full on race\street cars and that is not my ideal car. I own what i consider ideal and am making tweaks every year to just fine tune everything.

And i gladly give my keys to a particular other more experienced driver, But fact is how many people do you trust driving a 450WHP car without ABS around a track with tire walls.

The one thing that i would really like to invest in is data acquisition. I just havent been able to convince myself to spend the money on it.

I'm also really looking into a suspension setup change this year as my current springs are too stiff for the 245-255 street tires i will be running this next year.
In the past i always had race rubbers but tried going back to a street tire last season and have really enjoyed them so much that im going to set the car up for them this year.

Mostly i just want to continue having loads of seat time while driving a reliable, fast streetable Evo around\to the track. Which is why i brought this debate up, again its not that im trying to gain much more power then im used to its just that i want to continue at this high level without a hiccup.

R/TErnie

iTrader: (32)

AMS oil pan with the Kiggle HLA and a nice fluidamper.

Something with a R/S ratio near stock or better.

Oil squirters required.

I would prefer a 4G64 block.

getsideways

iTrader: (18)

Reasoning behind the 4G64?

R/TErnie

iTrader: (32)

Taller Deck block... better R/S ratio... less piston loading... less bearing load.

Robevo RS

iTrader: (16)

Hint:
Grupe B cars was tested in the early 80's vs the F1 cars to see how much slower they are actually . Same lenght stage / track close layout too. The Grupe B cars was actually between 1-2 second slower on gravel...
Fast forward to today, the WRC cars / which many cases are beaten or run very closely to the grupe A cars are faster then the Grupe B cars were...
So now you tell me the rally cars doesn't pull enough G force? LOL

This topic is not about track vs rally. But don't let your imagination fool you.

Rob

KevinD

iTrader: (56)

Show me a data log of any rally car on the planet pulling a sustained 4 gees lateral accel on gravel and I'll paypal you 100 dollars now. You don't have enough grip with the road to compete with an f1 car. Now more realistically, I bet your car doesn't pull more then 1gee on gravel sustained. In fact I bet it's quite a bit less then that. It's not that group b cars are slow (they are in fact fast). It's that dirt and dirt tires don't offer the same grip that pavement and Hoosier slicks do. If you had the same traction we did you wouldn't be sliding all over the place. That's why I don't believe you have the same oil starvation issues a road race car will see. Tarmac is a different story, that's essentially road racing.... (even still, on pavement an 80s f1 car would annihilate a group b rally car.


I would be your biggest issue would be when you go airborne. Free falling means the oil isn't making it to the bottom of the oil pan, and no baffling will solve that... You'll need a dry sump system to have some buffer.

Robevo RS

iTrader: (16)

dear Kevin:

"Show me a data log of any rally car on the planet pulling a sustained 4 gees lateral accel on gravel and I'll paypal you 100 dollars now."

i am not sure when i said that rally cars pulling sustained 4g's in the corner... LOL

i can come up lame statements like that too:
show me a a data to prove the rally car has less oil starvation then a road race car..
i mean ... really??

if you get killed by a bullet , it does matter to you it was a direct hit or bounced off bullet? The results a same. So as for the engine about oil starvation. Does it matter why we slapping the oil left and right or up and down in the oil pan for the engine point of view?
As i said it is not about rally vs road race, although in the States road racers tend to be on the high horse vs rally guys... LOL

anyway,

"You don't have enough grip with the road to compete with an f1 car. "

i am also not sure when i said that. you just getting these from i dont know where.... There is something you want to talk about it, i am not aware of? You see you need to focus on the oil starvation not to dream up really stupid things. I was refereeing (as i am sure you are aware of it) there was a situation where people looked up how much slower actually the grupe B car vs the F1 on gravel. So as to point out for you actually the rally cars are not that slow there for they pull enough g's for the problem.

"Now more realistically, I bet your car doesn't pull more then 1gee on gravel sustained. In fact I bet it's quite a bit less then that. "
"quite the opposite... rally cars on dirt dont see anywhere near the Gees a road race car will see, so oil starvation isn't going to be nearly as much of a problem as what you would see on a road race car. and even rallying it, i can assure you your not driving it any harder then anyone road racing."[from your previous post]
"robevo RS, i would say you are throwing away 500 dollars every 5 races if your replacing rod bearings that often. no way are you beating on them more then we are, and ours last much longer then that."[from your previous post]

sure there is no way rally cars are driven hard or see even close 1G's...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MhsY5_dAlg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FCYMx6XzUA
ETC.
or
me on gravel no ditch nothing with street R888'S tires at low very low level rally with of course 0 gforce :


or the higher level rally:


and i can go on and on .

"even still, on pavement an 80s f1 car would annihilate a group b rally car."

yes you where right , the F1 car on tarmac was instead 1-2 sec faster , actually it was 4 sec faster then a 1986 grupe b rally car on gravel, never mind a top speed differences between the two type of race car at the result...: i am not exactly sure you can call that annihilate...

here is my site watch the second video or ffw to 1.40 sec and listen to the comment. It is not a bad page to read for you.
http://harracingusa.com/?page_id=186

"It's that dirt and dirt tires don't offer the same grip that pavement and Hoosier slicks do. "
yes they dont but you would be surprised in a good rally car, never mind a surprise you will get from a ditch hook ...

anyway 1986 technology on gravel, not that shabby:
"The 1986 season started with impressive performances by Finns Henri Toivonen and Alén in Lancia's new turbo- and supercharged Delta S4, which could reportedly accelerate from 0-60 mph (96 km/h) in 2.3 seconds, on a gravel road"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rally_Championship

we cant use dry sump system by rules.

In closing, you are quite wrong about oil starvation in rally/ low hp engines. Which is not a problem until you actually make a comment on it. I was referring about not having a high hp engine and still having a huge problem with oil starvation. Ergo all about the driver and the race you do.

We rally drivers face daily this type of arguments from road racer guys , who actually never did rally. Once they do we never have this type of discussion anymore. If you want try one rally /there is two coming up in NY and one in Tennessee which are tarmac so you do not need expensive modification in your car. And then tell me about your thoughts.

no offense , just making sure you not looking down to rally abuse. I can assure you , rally engines have a same if not more abuse as a road race engines, even when they are way underpowered compare to them.
You can get more technical info from RKT motors [ http://www.rktmotors.com/Gallery.html ] if you wish about this. They do build road race and rally engines for high level racing.
I am a driver but still i recognize things i see around me, even bearings which are worn out.

press on

Rob


ps: reason of the editing was: my bad English .. LOl as usual.