Braf

Understand, appreciate, respect yes. Like, no.

Kind of like watching a dog chase its tail. Got to be drunk or buzzin’ to enjoy it.

bahamut

I have already did mention a few pointers.
1) restrictor plate racing plainly sucks.

2) gravy train racing sucks too. bunches people up to create huge pileups.

3) NASCAR is afraid of other company participation - still pimping the good ole boy network in this day in age.

4) other than that, I have no quarrel with Bill France Jr's big PR machine.

Braf

Got to be a little careful there with the restrictor plate comment. In WRC the restrictors are of course placed in the turbo inlet, 34mm I seem to recall.

bahamut

I'm well aware of it.

It's the major reason why FIA killed the ancient Porsche 962 in Group C prototype. That car was so domanant that each year FIA keep increasing its size until that TC motor couldn't make effective HP.

That's why I hate all restrictor plate, no matter what form. CART has its version in the pop-off valve.

Braf

What form of motor sports is not subjected to restrictive regulation? What I object to are situations where there is no longer serious competition. I used to follow F1 but am just not into the Shumi show. It has all got a bit boring for me. WRC is all I even attempt to follow.

bahamut

I don't like restrictions that specifically target a car. Its ultimate goal to kill car from lack of HP to compete properly.

My example is the famed Porsche 962C. Its honeycomb chassis and TC motor were built in the mid 80's, which lasted up to the late 90's - subtle change through time.

That's unheard of in the racing world. F1 or CART can't afford to step behind in tech adavancement. Yet, Porsche did it with their meager R&D money while other factory teams poured millions into their program.

That TC motor was so reliable against new tech engines, whether it be NA or another TC that FIA didn't like the all Porsche show from privateers. Then, FIA thought to put more and more restrictions to the motor every year trying to curb their winning. Yes, Porsche got slower and slower, but they still won meagerly and even the 24 hr of Lemans via reliability.

The last death blow came when Porsche disguised their 962C into the GT1. Guess what. That same "ancient" motor with a bit different chassis still won its GT1 class whether in Euro or US. The GT1 series lasted a few more years until the LMP open cockpit was their media darling.

Porsche said no thanks and left the racing forever. It didn't take too long for the prancing horse to abandon it too.

Right now, all those GT2 and GT3 are run by privateers with no factory help . . . Porsche is there to just provide parts and that's it.


http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/D...03/porsche.htm

Here's a basic history of Porsche through the good and bad times until the arrival of F1 engines from the McLaren. FIA and ACO made it possible for the demise of Porsche factory support in the worls.

Braf

Ok, I’m with you now. I’m just another victim of disorganized thinking!

Targeting a specific car just because it works better does seem counterproductive. Kind of discourages development.

Thanks for the education/history lesson.

bahamut

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/D...03/porsche.htm

This is why I love Group C and GT1 racing . . . pure supercars!

cupOZnj

"1) restrictor plate racing plainly sucks."
i think this is completely different than the porsche example. restrictor plates were put on not to 'even' the playing field, but to try and make the sport safer. yeah, crashes happen even on restrictor plate courses, but they feel that it would be more dangerous without them. i would like to think that higher ups in nascar development know what they are doing to introduce this.

"2) gravy train racing sucks too. bunches people up to create huge pileups."
this is the best part of the sport. seeing cars do 180+mph 6inches from other cars is what is so exciting. they are constantly battling back and forth, which brings real drama to the competition.

"3) NASCAR is afraid of other company participation - still pimping the good ole boy network in this day in age."
again-american drivers, on american soil, driving american cars. fans don't want anything else.

you are entitled to your own opinion. i'm not trying to rebutt or put down your opinion, but i am just re-stating what i find so appealling about it and why your points don't discourage me.

i don't see why a right turn is so exciting....everyone keeps saying that it sucks cause they only make left turns....so what? is a right turn harder? if they only made right turns, then would you like it? you probably hate horse racing too cause they only make left turns....and that's the only reason you hate it. so far bahamut has given some strong opinions as to why he does not prefer nascar, which i respect. if you find it boring, fine.....i find soccer boring. but don't start bashing it for idiotic reasons like they only make left turns. i don't bash soccer saying "football is better cause you use your hands. feet are stupid." i respect soccer and the athletes that play it. just as i respect (and enjoy) all forms of auto racing.

trigeek37

first off F1 events are not 3 hours long - the longest is 2 hours.
the probelm with NASCAR is that the drivers are not talented - that is why they only turn one way - it really matters. watch the prerace coverage before NASCAR does the Glen or another road course - the drivers do nothing buy ***** because they don't like the course. that is sad.

the difference between a Chevy, Pontiac, Ford, and Dodge NASCAR is ZERO - that is just stupid. the whole competition is based on drivers & team skill, which is fine, but makes for aweful boring racing. there is no excitment as racers set each other up for turns, or make brake runs into hard corners - cause they only use brakes when they are pitting - how is that exciting? they could driver 90% of the race with cruise control on - how is this exciting?

there is a certain beauty to NASCAR. having 40+ cars on a tri-oval at 200 mph has a certain beauty, sorta like a fish tank.

But, the absolute worst thing about NASCAR is that it is robbing America of all her driving talent. There is no real regional feeder series in the US that leads to F1, CART, or WRC. All the regional action is NASCAR.... How can we ever expect drivers here to be interested in real race series when the most American money & prestige is in the worst series?

cupOZnj

actually....they do use their brakes. watch a race at martinsville, that is the most demanding track (probably one of the hardest tracks to drive). it is a very short straight into an unbanked 90 degree turn. their brakes are on fire for most of the race. cruise control? HA! this just shows how little you know. you honestly think this? have you ever driven fast in your car before? have you ever taken a turn at high speed? it is not like turning on the highway. it is HARD. again, try hopping in your car, take a turn at full speed, and don't put it in a curb. THEN, try increasing your speed by 20mph and see how easy it is. go another 20mph. it's not cake.

if you are basing this off the daytona 500, where they drive at a constant 190mph the whole race...don't. every other track is different and requires different amounts of throttle, break, camber, steering, etc. but what i do like about the daytona and talledaga is that there are 43 cars within 500 feet of each other going 190mph, and anything can happen at any moment. if you don't like pack driving, then i guess it's not for you, but don't put it down and call it stupid.

the drivers don't like the road courses because it isn't their roots. they grew up driving short ovals and this is what they are used to. plus now instead of 200 things to take into account when tuning your car, there's 800. teams work all week long non-stop making their car perfect for the particular track. and not all nascar drivers hate road courses....tony stewart for example does very well on them, he even drives INDY cars on occasion.

there are differences in the 4 manufacturers. subtle but they are there. and that is done because it is STOCK car racing, and to keep everything even. so no 1 manufacturer wins all the races, which i think is a good thing. who the hell wants to see ford cars win all the time (ahem audi). it's all about who can get their car to link up with the driver and the course in a given week.

these drivers are smart. they know a hell of a lot about cars. they know how to squeeze every thousandth of a second out of the car, and what can make or break a race.

if you think it is boring, again, that's fine. but don't say that all they do is make left turns, cause if you know anything about driving that is not a valid argument.

GPTourer

I really don't know how I could argue this point other then to say, try doing it yourself, but since that's not possible, I can only say that you are wrong. It takes a skilled individual, as well as a great athlete to get into a 700hp machine and compete against others for 5-600 miles in a sport decided by seconds and inches. They may not be the most skilled drivers, I personally think F1 and WRC drivers are, but not just anyone could do what Dale Junior, Tony Stewart, Rusty Wallace, etc do every week.

Agreed. It does get out of hand when one make dominates, and what usually happens is the other manufactures git pissy and leave and the race series dies out. It happened to the Skyline in the All Japan GT Championship, now all the cars in the GT500 series are 2WD and they have to carry sandbags if they win.

By making most of the tracks oval it allows the fans to see everything that's going on. With a set of binocualrs and a scanner they get to see and hear just about everything, its simplicity is what makes it so attractive. The IRL does the same thing. The only left turn thing seems somewhat trite when used to belittle the skill of the drivers. I'm curious as to what you think of professional drag racers. Is John Force then not a good driver, or an athlete? All he does is go straight, could not then just anybody take his place? Does he not have skill?

EVOLVRVII

Hmm.. perhaps you haven't heard but Toyota is in fact going to be getting into NASCAR. They are starting with the CTS in 2004-05 and then go into NASCAR in 2006. The main reason why Toyota and/or Honda isn't in it yet is because they do not build a factory V-8.

I watch NASCAR everyweek. It's fun, patriotic and really fun when you go see it live. I did Sears Point a couple years ago and watching then hit the brakes right by the front strech grandstands to make the corner is always a blast...

but I always make time for WRC, especially the WRC on PS2... man racing those EVOs is almost as fun as watching them...

trigeek37

I am entitled to think NASCAR is stupid as much as I want - that whole freedom of speech thing...

first of all, many of the tracks they run on are very banked like Daytona. I have walked Daytona, and it is difficult to walk up it. It is almost like Nardo, where the incline is so much that you don't even have to slow down for the "corners". If you want to see a real track, head to Road America, the Glen, or Road Atlanta.

and no, John Force isn't a good athlete in the tradational sence of the word. He has an absolutely amazing ability react quickly - almost freaky like an NHL goalie. Athletes in a traditional sence are fast, strong, and quick - and John Force only matches one of these criteria. I don't want to get off course here, but if you put John Force and Zack Thomas in a cage, who would win? I am not bashing NASCAR or NHRA here - no race car driver is an excellent athlete, they are very, very skilled at what they do - sorta like the guys in the PGA. Not great athletes, but freaky skilled.

I never infered that Stewert, Gorden etc are untalented drivers. And when I state that NASCAR drivers aren't talented I am not comparing them to me. Most of them could drive cicles around me. I am comparing them to their contemporaries in the ranks of professional race car drivers, where they simply to not measure up.

my last arguement on the car similiarity: if you removed all the stickers from a NASCAR, could you tell the difference from a Dodge & Ford? How about during a race? I know F1 cars look a lot alike, but that is because they are going for a 100% max aero-downforce car at 99.9% of the rules set up by the FIA. Could you tell the difference between a WRC Focus and WRC WRX?

As for driving fast - yes I do it, probably way too much. I have experience at the drag, auto-x, and road courses. I know what a high performace car feels like. I know the thrill of taking sweepers at 100+ MPH.

I for one like FIA because it isn't a level playing field. If Audi (Sports car & ALMS), Ferrari (F1), or Mitsubishi (back a few years in WRC) build the best car that they can, they deserve to win!

cupOZnj

there are some valid points in your argument as to reasons why you don't like nascar. if you like to see a tech battle...then nascar probably isn't for you. but the cars look the same for similar reasons...they are going for max aero performance, and they are restricted as to how far they can take it.

and not all tracks are banked like daytona. daytona is 26 degrees, most of the others are FAR less....daytona is set up so that the cars can go max speed 100% of the race which is VERY demanding on the automobile and the driver. there's a difference between driving at 80mph on the highway for 3 hours, and driving at full speed 130 mph on the highway for 3 hours (or in their case, 190mph)....namely concentration and physical strain. not too mention driving at full speed for 3 hours and having 42 other drivers all up your *** 6 inches behind you.

i disagree with the athelete comment. i believe golfers are atheletes, as much as race car drivers, etc. a skill would be like computer programming, or something. i consider anything that pits physical and mental challenges against a person for competetion athletic. if this definition were restricted to so called traditional atheletes...then i think the only true "athletes" are those that compete in track and field.

as i said before...if you think it's boring, fine. if you enjoy F1 racing more and devot your time to that, fine. i just don't like when people put it down because of the "left turn" thing, or saying they aren't talented, etc.

btw-drag racers are VERY VERY good drivers. it's not just reaction time....they have to constantly adjust and make quick decisions the whole quater mile. if you don't believe me....go test drive a viper (or car with insane power) and try and hold all that power straight at full throttle. i've heard numerous stories of people rapping their viper around a pole 10 seconds after they drive it off the lot cause they can't handle the power.