Sup w/them 2024 Summer Projects?
May 29, 2020, 06:55 AM
#1516
To add to the confusion I decided to ask google to clarify. There is a website (www.rs683.com) that also claims the 583°/394° boiling points. I'd still trust the number on the bottle but holy hell it shouldn't be this hard.
May 29, 2020, 07:43 AM
#1517
Some vendors are also saying it's all the same stuff:
https://mtiracing.com/products/brake-fluid-torque-rt700
https://mtiracing.com/products/brake-fluid-torque-rt700
May 29, 2020, 10:01 AM
#1519
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
To add to the confusion I decided to ask google to clarify. There is a website (www.rs683.com) that also claims the 583°/394° boiling points. I'd still trust the number on the bottle but holy hell it shouldn't be this hard.
May 29, 2020, 01:57 PM
#1521
To add to the confusion I decided to ask google to clarify. There is a website (www.rs683.com) that also claims the 583°/394° boiling points. I'd still trust the number on the bottle but holy hell it shouldn't be this hard.
It's not like it's hard to copy some numbers properly. Getting not one, but two critical numbers wrong for this long is a strange mistake.
May 30, 2020, 06:36 AM
#1522
I sent them an e-mail asking them to clarify the dry boiling point. May not make a difference, but at least they should know.
Even their catalog page shows the 583 boiling point: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/2020/155.pdf They sorted the chart in order of decreasing dry boiling points, so the RS683 is listed barely above good old ATE Typ 200.
Even their catalog page shows the 583 boiling point: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/2020/155.pdf They sorted the chart in order of decreasing dry boiling points, so the RS683 is listed barely above good old ATE Typ 200.
May 30, 2020, 08:58 AM
#1523
Ok so here's the two sides of that coin. Grep'd from ft86 boards, this is all from 2017:
I spoke to Gene Mahan, the owner of Prospeed Motorsport, and I have some information that will be helpful to the forum and can shed some light on what exactly happened with Torque RT700. Gene was a business partner with Michael Wachholz and together they created the Torque RT700 brand and marketed the product. Gene's role was primarily as a financial backer, while Michael was responsible for sales, marketing, and running the business day-to-day. According to Gene, he became aware that Michael was not acting ethically, was marketing the product with fraudulent claims, and was failing to fulfill customer orders, and he decided to terminate his financial involvement in the business. Michael then seized their inventory of 45 cases of brake fluid and claimed that it never existed or had already been sold. It appears that at this point he continued to take customer and distributor money, but failed to fulfill a substantial number of orders. Police reports were filed and there's currently an arrest warrant for Michael Wachholz in the state of Colorado, and it's suspected that he's fled the state. Crazy story, huh?
Gene told me that neither Torque, Inc. or Prospeed Motorsport manufacture the product, but that it's made under contract by a third party and that RT700 and RS683 are, in fact, the same exact fluid - although Prospeed Motorsport RS683 sells for considerably less than Torque RT700. The discrepancies in the wet and dry boiling points between the two fluids was one of the ways that Gene initially caught Michael making fraudulent claims, which he found while reviewing the specifications from the manufacturer. He said he's marketed RS683 with accurate specifications, but there still seems to be an inconsistency on the front label regarding dry boiling point. He also said that even with the lower wet and dry boiling points the fluid is exceptional and has some very unique properties - which has been borne out by extensive testing by @CounterSpace Garage here on this forum.
For people like myself who have used and liked Torque RT700, Prospeed Motorsport RS683 is an excellent direct replacement. I suggested that Gene talk with @CounterSpace Garage to see if they would like to distribute or sell RS683, and he seemed very interested at the suggestion - particularly because they had so much direct experience with the product when marketed as RT700. @CounterSpace Garage, if you're interested please PM me and I can give you Gene's mobile number and e-mail address.
No doubt, it's a crazy story - I wanted to share it with the forum and I hope it was helpful to those that wondered what the hell happened to Torque RT700!Last edited by RJasonKlein; 03-29-2017 at 11:46 PM. Reason: Corrected a typographical error.
And then this from the same "tester" CounterSpaceGarage:
Just the messenger here. I was asked to post this.
Quote: Michael G Wachholz This is something else you may want to post to the forum...
ALL brake fluid, Motul, AP Racing, Brembo, Galffer, EBC Brakes, Wilwood, Stoptech and many many more literally 98% of all performance brake fluids are produced by a 3rd party vendor. In the case of the fluids listed about ALL are EXACTLY the same brake fluid from a company called "Orthene Chemical" (http://www.orthene.com/) Many of them even come is the same bottle with just a different color.
Yes, RT700 is blended by a USA based 3rd party vendor, who happens to be the #1 manufacturer and OEM supplier of brake fluid in the WORLD. RT700 is full produced, bottled, in the USA. Even the labels and cartons, helmet visor strips, banners, etc are all produced in the USA. With rare exception by other small private businness' like Torque. I've never attempted to mislead anyone to that fact. And all my dealers are completely aware of that.
FWIW, there are only few (like < 5) true producers of brake fluid of any kind in the world. Torque is fortunate to have developed and maintained a relationship with our fluid supplier for about 15 years.
All that said, RT700 IS NOT the same as RS683. Gene doesn't know the first thing about brake fluid. While it has been my exclusive focus for almost 15 years. I would suggest (yes, just my personal opinion. And not attempting to disrespect Gene, just stating facts) you take anything Gene says about brake fluid with a heavy duty grain of salt.
Orthene - Innovative, specialist manufacturers of brake and clutch fluid
ORTHENE.COM
Then these two comments that closed the thread:
Quote: Originally Posted by TorqueInc
Thank you CSG Mike for posting my FB post here. I registered yesterday and was approved to post until today.
A couple of things I'd like to add... RT700 is now available in 24 countries. All of the EuroZone, Singapore/Malaysia, Australia, Trinidad/Tobago, Canada, Hong Kong. I don't believe RS683 is available outside of the USA.
As to the similarities of the labels/bottles, etc. That is because I was the guy that wrote all the copy, directed all the graphics design and was completely and the only one responsible to sourcing and managing all the production and packaging. Most of the copy is mandated by DOT to be compliant and anything is my personal writing style. When I started Torque I would have been silly to rewrite the label copy to somehow not read the same. For that matter you will see some of the copy is even the same for other brake fluids. As I stated, to be DOT compliant much is mandated.
The issues between Gene and myself (IMHO) should stay between just the two of us. Just like it does no one any good to air their dirty laundry in a divorce the same applies to the failure of a business partnership. There will also be (at least) 2 sides to any story and to (IMHO) come to any sort of conclusion or opinion based on one side is, at best, ill informed.
I have been at this for a long time and I have no plans to get out of it. I love cars (even the electric ones. Have you driven the BMW i3? That is really a cool car!) I love racing and motorsports. My father (no longer with us) built and raced 3/4 midgets before I was born and my uncle had a automotive machine shop into his 80's. We never watched any stick/ball sports but we always watched any type of racing that was available on TV. I once had the opportunity to meet and chat with Bobby Rahal. I was telling him about going to a movie theater in Downtown St. Paul, MN to watch the Indy 500 on closed circuit TV. Bobby remembered the race and said that was in 1964.
I think that about covers it for what I will say publicly. Go ahead and flame me or whatever you want to do. It will not change anything. There's a lot of people worldwide that love RT700 and don't want to use anything else. And I continue to get international inquires about once every couple of weeks. And that's with out me doing any type of marketing to anyone outside the USA. RT700 has been a part of several championships both pro and amatur in both cars and motorcycles in the past few years. RT700 is a great brake fluid and that will not change.
Thank you for reading.
Michael
Torque Inc
P.S. if anyone would like to speak to me directly, I'm completely open/available for such. In fact I welcome it. PM me for a phone #
Talk is cheap. You haven't answered my email's, voice-mail, texts, fb pm's in over a year. How about you ship people's orders?
Well said. He only gave a personal life story for people to feel sympathy for him.
Didn't acknowledge all the posts about undelivered products.
So there's ....all that. Ya...I'll be sticking with RF650.
I spoke to Gene Mahan, the owner of Prospeed Motorsport, and I have some information that will be helpful to the forum and can shed some light on what exactly happened with Torque RT700. Gene was a business partner with Michael Wachholz and together they created the Torque RT700 brand and marketed the product. Gene's role was primarily as a financial backer, while Michael was responsible for sales, marketing, and running the business day-to-day. According to Gene, he became aware that Michael was not acting ethically, was marketing the product with fraudulent claims, and was failing to fulfill customer orders, and he decided to terminate his financial involvement in the business. Michael then seized their inventory of 45 cases of brake fluid and claimed that it never existed or had already been sold. It appears that at this point he continued to take customer and distributor money, but failed to fulfill a substantial number of orders. Police reports were filed and there's currently an arrest warrant for Michael Wachholz in the state of Colorado, and it's suspected that he's fled the state. Crazy story, huh?
Gene told me that neither Torque, Inc. or Prospeed Motorsport manufacture the product, but that it's made under contract by a third party and that RT700 and RS683 are, in fact, the same exact fluid - although Prospeed Motorsport RS683 sells for considerably less than Torque RT700. The discrepancies in the wet and dry boiling points between the two fluids was one of the ways that Gene initially caught Michael making fraudulent claims, which he found while reviewing the specifications from the manufacturer. He said he's marketed RS683 with accurate specifications, but there still seems to be an inconsistency on the front label regarding dry boiling point. He also said that even with the lower wet and dry boiling points the fluid is exceptional and has some very unique properties - which has been borne out by extensive testing by @CounterSpace Garage here on this forum.
For people like myself who have used and liked Torque RT700, Prospeed Motorsport RS683 is an excellent direct replacement. I suggested that Gene talk with @CounterSpace Garage to see if they would like to distribute or sell RS683, and he seemed very interested at the suggestion - particularly because they had so much direct experience with the product when marketed as RT700. @CounterSpace Garage, if you're interested please PM me and I can give you Gene's mobile number and e-mail address.
No doubt, it's a crazy story - I wanted to share it with the forum and I hope it was helpful to those that wondered what the hell happened to Torque RT700!Last edited by RJasonKlein; 03-29-2017 at 11:46 PM. Reason: Corrected a typographical error.
And then this from the same "tester" CounterSpaceGarage:
Just the messenger here. I was asked to post this.
Quote: Michael G Wachholz This is something else you may want to post to the forum...
ALL brake fluid, Motul, AP Racing, Brembo, Galffer, EBC Brakes, Wilwood, Stoptech and many many more literally 98% of all performance brake fluids are produced by a 3rd party vendor. In the case of the fluids listed about ALL are EXACTLY the same brake fluid from a company called "Orthene Chemical" (http://www.orthene.com/) Many of them even come is the same bottle with just a different color.
Yes, RT700 is blended by a USA based 3rd party vendor, who happens to be the #1 manufacturer and OEM supplier of brake fluid in the WORLD. RT700 is full produced, bottled, in the USA. Even the labels and cartons, helmet visor strips, banners, etc are all produced in the USA. With rare exception by other small private businness' like Torque. I've never attempted to mislead anyone to that fact. And all my dealers are completely aware of that.
FWIW, there are only few (like < 5) true producers of brake fluid of any kind in the world. Torque is fortunate to have developed and maintained a relationship with our fluid supplier for about 15 years.
All that said, RT700 IS NOT the same as RS683. Gene doesn't know the first thing about brake fluid. While it has been my exclusive focus for almost 15 years. I would suggest (yes, just my personal opinion. And not attempting to disrespect Gene, just stating facts) you take anything Gene says about brake fluid with a heavy duty grain of salt.
Orthene - Innovative, specialist manufacturers of brake and clutch fluid
ORTHENE.COM
Then these two comments that closed the thread:
Quote: Originally Posted by TorqueInc
Thank you CSG Mike for posting my FB post here. I registered yesterday and was approved to post until today.
A couple of things I'd like to add... RT700 is now available in 24 countries. All of the EuroZone, Singapore/Malaysia, Australia, Trinidad/Tobago, Canada, Hong Kong. I don't believe RS683 is available outside of the USA.
As to the similarities of the labels/bottles, etc. That is because I was the guy that wrote all the copy, directed all the graphics design and was completely and the only one responsible to sourcing and managing all the production and packaging. Most of the copy is mandated by DOT to be compliant and anything is my personal writing style. When I started Torque I would have been silly to rewrite the label copy to somehow not read the same. For that matter you will see some of the copy is even the same for other brake fluids. As I stated, to be DOT compliant much is mandated.
The issues between Gene and myself (IMHO) should stay between just the two of us. Just like it does no one any good to air their dirty laundry in a divorce the same applies to the failure of a business partnership. There will also be (at least) 2 sides to any story and to (IMHO) come to any sort of conclusion or opinion based on one side is, at best, ill informed.
I have been at this for a long time and I have no plans to get out of it. I love cars (even the electric ones. Have you driven the BMW i3? That is really a cool car!) I love racing and motorsports. My father (no longer with us) built and raced 3/4 midgets before I was born and my uncle had a automotive machine shop into his 80's. We never watched any stick/ball sports but we always watched any type of racing that was available on TV. I once had the opportunity to meet and chat with Bobby Rahal. I was telling him about going to a movie theater in Downtown St. Paul, MN to watch the Indy 500 on closed circuit TV. Bobby remembered the race and said that was in 1964.
I think that about covers it for what I will say publicly. Go ahead and flame me or whatever you want to do. It will not change anything. There's a lot of people worldwide that love RT700 and don't want to use anything else. And I continue to get international inquires about once every couple of weeks. And that's with out me doing any type of marketing to anyone outside the USA. RT700 has been a part of several championships both pro and amatur in both cars and motorcycles in the past few years. RT700 is a great brake fluid and that will not change.
Thank you for reading.
Michael
Torque Inc
P.S. if anyone would like to speak to me directly, I'm completely open/available for such. In fact I welcome it. PM me for a phone #
Talk is cheap. You haven't answered my email's, voice-mail, texts, fb pm's in over a year. How about you ship people's orders?
Well said. He only gave a personal life story for people to feel sympathy for him.
Didn't acknowledge all the posts about undelivered products.
So there's ....all that. Ya...I'll be sticking with RF650.
Jun 2, 2020, 11:33 AM
#1525
EvoM Guru
Whats the in/lb to kg conversion for those springs lol thats huge.
Good question really. more driving i think just want to drive it. going to head to track again this saturday for another skid around. Then theres a winter series starting up which me and a couple others i race with in summer are going to invade. but its not till 19th july
Jun 2, 2020, 01:21 PM
#1526
More info on the RS683 boiling point:
Pegasus Auto Racing wrote a very nice and knowledgeable response to my inquiry. In short:
The 583F boiling point is the correct boiling point as measured via the proper value, as measured via the standard Equilibrium Reflux Boiling Point (ERBP) method like every other brake fluid. This is the number we should be using for comparison.
The 683F number is thought to be the open-air boiling point. That is, if you poured some RS683 into a pan and increased the temperature, it would start to turn to visible steam around 683F. Apparently one of their previous marketing people (I assume the guy mentioned above) caught wind of this alternative measurement and decided to run with it.
Either way, I think I'll be going with RBF650 when this SRF needs to be replaced. However, I have to give credit to Pegasus Auto Racing for their very helpful responses. I'll be adding Pegasus to the list of vendors that I support.
Pegasus Auto Racing wrote a very nice and knowledgeable response to my inquiry. In short:
The 583F boiling point is the correct boiling point as measured via the proper value, as measured via the standard Equilibrium Reflux Boiling Point (ERBP) method like every other brake fluid. This is the number we should be using for comparison.
The 683F number is thought to be the open-air boiling point. That is, if you poured some RS683 into a pan and increased the temperature, it would start to turn to visible steam around 683F. Apparently one of their previous marketing people (I assume the guy mentioned above) caught wind of this alternative measurement and decided to run with it.
Either way, I think I'll be going with RBF650 when this SRF needs to be replaced. However, I have to give credit to Pegasus Auto Racing for their very helpful responses. I'll be adding Pegasus to the list of vendors that I support.
Jun 2, 2020, 01:58 PM
#1528
More info on the RS683 boiling point:
Pegasus Auto Racing wrote a very nice and knowledgeable response to my inquiry. In short:
The 583F boiling point is the correct boiling point as measured via the proper value, as measured via the standard Equilibrium Reflux Boiling Point (ERBP) method like every other brake fluid. This is the number we should be using for comparison.
The 683F number is thought to be the open-air boiling point. That is, if you poured some RS683 into a pan and increased the temperature, it would start to turn to visible steam around 683F. Apparently one of their previous marketing people (I assume the guy mentioned above) caught wind of this alternative measurement and decided to run with it.
Either way, I think I'll be going with RBF650 when this SRF needs to be replaced. However, I have to give credit to Pegasus Auto Racing for their very helpful responses. I'll be adding Pegasus to the list of vendors that I support.
Pegasus Auto Racing wrote a very nice and knowledgeable response to my inquiry. In short:
The 583F boiling point is the correct boiling point as measured via the proper value, as measured via the standard Equilibrium Reflux Boiling Point (ERBP) method like every other brake fluid. This is the number we should be using for comparison.
The 683F number is thought to be the open-air boiling point. That is, if you poured some RS683 into a pan and increased the temperature, it would start to turn to visible steam around 683F. Apparently one of their previous marketing people (I assume the guy mentioned above) caught wind of this alternative measurement and decided to run with it.
Either way, I think I'll be going with RBF650 when this SRF needs to be replaced. However, I have to give credit to Pegasus Auto Racing for their very helpful responses. I'll be adding Pegasus to the list of vendors that I support.
If the Prospeed stuff is the same (which it sounds like we now finally have confirmation) I will go back to that for sure.
Jun 2, 2020, 03:06 PM
#1530
EvoM Guru
The endless stuff is okay. better than the motul. but by god was it expensive. the pagid is just as good and half the price of the other 2