DeathStryfe

how limited are our FF's on the track? i know there is supposed to be a bit of an understeer, mostly for honda's...but how does an FF compare to a FR or 4WD on the track?

Kayaalp

iTrader: (1)

Well, any FWD or AWD car will have inherently more understeer than a good RWD car. It has to do with the friction circle. The more drive to the front wheels, the less grip is available to corner. It's that simple.

But I have to disagree when you say "mostly for Hondas." Some Hondas are among the best FWD cars I've driven. The ITR and RSX hardly understeer at all. So I'm not sure if Honda's the best example of understeer. Drive a Cavalier/Sunfire...now THAT's understeer!


That's not an easy question to answer. Generally, if you had to identical cars and one was FWD and the other was AWD, the AWD version would understeer less. But there are SO many variables that it's silly to talk in such general terms. I'd much rather drive an Integra Type R on the track than an Audi S4. But that doesn't mean FWD is better on the track!

Having said that, the most fun car to drive on the track is a well-balanced, normally-aspirated RWD car. Turbos make throttle steer a little tricky as they exaggerate your throttle inputs. And RWD gives you nice control through the corners. I find a well set-up E30 M3 far more fun on the track than a good Evo. Sure, the Evo will be significantly faster, but the M3 is a more pure driving experience.

Emre

urbanknight

iTrader: (14)

Either way, it mainly comes down to the driver (as seen in the pic of me passing an M Coupe below). Understeer can be corrected with the right alignment, although that's not to say it makes it handle as well as a RWD. Last Summer my Lancer was well balanced for the track, just the right amount of oversteer. But I changed things since it was still pushing in autocross, so we'll see if I forget and spin on the track.

But as said above, it's not easy to answer. The closest comparison would be the Corolla. Its earlier RWD models are better handling than the newer FWD models, but even those are in fact different cars. The important part is to remember which one you're in. After I sold my Trans Am and got a Lancer, I went to an autocross with a 180 hairpin, forgot I was now in FWD and mashed on the gas to whip around it. Ended up about 50 feet off course instead! You have to let off the gas to get oversteer on FWD. So I have a grocery getter for a car, it won't stop me from having fun in it!

Tanner_Hall

my ITR was a porsche and corvette killer at our local track....not to mention the autox.

of course, it all comes down to the driver anyway.

Speete

iTrader: (2)

Best thing I've found is by playing with trail brake/messing with corner entry speed to get rid of the push/understeer. Depends on the turn, but try going in a little slower if the car starts to plow, and let the AWD pull you out of the turn, keep track of the rpms and gear your in and see what your exit speeds are. Practice!

Alchemist

iTrader: (23)

The best piece of advice I was given on Sunday was from a guy who's been AXing for over a decade:

"remember that when driving FWD you have a choice that RWD guys don't generally have. Accelerate OR turn, you can't really do both"

WHY didn't I get my work assignment for the first run group?!

machron1

iTrader: (1)

I don't know how your car does, but my car even after a good alignment won't pull me out of jack **** lol. If I'm on the gas out of a corner it's pushing all the way to the outside of the turn and I have to let off a bit. I've even tried feathering back & forth to get the back end to come around, but it would take a thick rear sway & a torque biasing LSD to get it to pull me out of anything.

urbanknight

iTrader: (14)

Machron, it's possible. You just need to play around with different settings and driving habits.

g6civcx

iTrader: (6)

When it comes to racing, there are two (2) things to consider: your car's ability to go fast, and your personal ability to go fast.

Sometimes, hell most times, the car's ability far outweighs your ability. So the track is a great way to learn where both stand, and how to improve them.

So I applause your effort for taking racing to the track and keeping it there.

That said, the right setup can help you be more comfortable and develop your style and skills as a driver. Usually I've found the best formula for this is lightweight, low power, high grip RWD cars, such as the S12/S13/etc 240SX, AE86 RWD Corolla, Miata, FC RX7, etc.

Lord knows, I've owned 7 or 8 of those cars

But the point is that those cars will teach you how to drive. They don't have a lot of power, so they're a little more forgiving on untrained throttle feet. They're light so they'll take a little more pushing around and won't push back.

Front wheel drive cars aren't too bad either. Cars like Civics (with a good suspension), Integra, Protege, Sentra SE-R, CRX, etc. I can go on and on.

With the FWD cars, it gets a little trickier because the power comes to the front. So you can't really do as much as you want with the RWD, however, the FWD cars are generally more controllable and have faster steering response than the RWD due to their lighter weight.

When you get in trouble with the FWD, just remember to steer and gas. Provided that you're not too far gone, most times you'll be able to save it where a RWD would spin beyond repair.


But for beginners, you should focus more on picking the right line. I would go ahead and recommend that you pick your braking line and brake well before the marker. This will give you a little margin of error in case you do lock up and lose control. It will also puts less pressure on you to scrub off speed. So with less pressure, you'll perform better and start feeling the car and spotting the line instead of hanging onto the wheel

So break and gear down BEFORE you enter the turn. Also, don't coast through the turn. Put it in gear and release the clutch slowly. Take it easy if you haven't learned heel toe yet. I would recommend that you brake first. Get your entry speed down. Then shift into the gear you want. With practise, you will be able to do both simultaneously.

Pick your line!!! This you'll have to get with pratice. It's generally best to go outside-inside-outside, staying out wide at the entry, clipping the apex, and exitting out wide to straightening out the turn.

There will be decreasing radius and off-camber and double apex turns, but those will come naturally to you when you master the basic line.

When you enter a turn, you do not want to touch the brake at all. Pick your entry speed and commit to it throughout the turn. If you brake in the turn, you entered that turn too quickly.

Later on, you'll learn trail braking and left foot braking, but for now, no braking in the turns.

Hold your apex a little later than you feel comfortable. Most people apex too early. They turn in early, pick up speed, and have problem making the apex and getting the car to rotate. They end up having to correct the midcorner speed, then having to perform another turn to make the exit. You've just turned one turn into two. So make it easy on yourself. Brake down to your entry speed and apex late to sweep out a better line.

After you clip the apex, begin to accelerate out of the turn. Try to use as much real eastate as possible on the exit to get the best exit line, ie. try to come out as wide as you can without going off course so you can have as straight a line as possible shooting out of the corner.

With the FWD, you can power down a little earlier than the RWD, but you have to be careful that you don't understeer when you ask the front end to do too much. With RWD, you can power down early, but it will make the rear end fridgetty and steering tricky. You have to be good with catching the RWD if you're going to attempt to accelerate before the apex; you have to get the car to rotate and be prepared to countersteer.

Again, it depends on the car's setup and how comfortable you are.

Take a class at a track day if you can. It will teach you all those things and give you a chance to practise with an instructor.

g6civcx

iTrader: (6)

Also, for the Evo, and as is for all high power cars, you want to have a low entry speed and then power your way down through the apex and exit the turn.

If you enter too fast, the car is very heavy and even though the suspension is extremely good, this is a car that you don't want to induce rotation; it's going to be gone. It takes a lot of skill to catch an AWD car and put it back on the racing line.

So again, brake and gear down, apex late, come out and power down smoothly or you'll get massive understeer when the turbo kicks in.

You'll get the hang of it if you take it easy on yourself and don't force yourself to do too much. Eventually you'll have a feel for the car and your skills get better.

Bom's Evo

iTrader: (14)

just pick up the new SCC mag. FF keeps up with the best of them. even 400-500hp AWD + FR's. Beat a couple 1000hp supras too....

FF you can push the car harder w/o being scared of spinning out. But understeer is pretty scarryyy too!

FF cars #1 advantage is lightweight. Take for example hondas 2000lbs and a good amount of power. But theres only soo much the front wheels can do: turn, steer, brake..ect...