Share your experiences: Aftermarket suspension setups, on WA roads/tracks
Jul 20, 2010, 09:37 PM
#47
Don't forget the posted shock dyno's are an average of several runs. They don't give you the standard deviation...or range of operation.... nor shock to shock comparison of shocks pulled from the shelf at random.
what I said is true. For less than that amount of money... you simply cannot have sufficient engineering, quality of materials, or quality control to sell that product for a profit.
You have 500 dollars to buy some wheels. You can buy wheels for 500 dollars, but will they be engineered to be as light as possible while maintaining the stiffness required? No. Will each wheel weigh the same amount? No. Will they be made using the best material and process? No. Ball park says you need to spend at least 1200 bucks to get a decent wheel and when you spend closer to 3k you're getting a fully engineered, forged wheel, that has not comprised weight for structural integrity or stiffness.
You guys are saying that the 500 dollar wheels are just as competitive as the CCW's. (we're even talking about wheels! they're not even considered DYNAMICALLY adjustable components lol)
I will not speak about AMR shocks.
what I said is true. For less than that amount of money... you simply cannot have sufficient engineering, quality of materials, or quality control to sell that product for a profit.
You have 500 dollars to buy some wheels. You can buy wheels for 500 dollars, but will they be engineered to be as light as possible while maintaining the stiffness required? No. Will each wheel weigh the same amount? No. Will they be made using the best material and process? No. Ball park says you need to spend at least 1200 bucks to get a decent wheel and when you spend closer to 3k you're getting a fully engineered, forged wheel, that has not comprised weight for structural integrity or stiffness.
You guys are saying that the 500 dollar wheels are just as competitive as the CCW's. (we're even talking about wheels! they're not even considered DYNAMICALLY adjustable components lol)
I will not speak about AMR shocks.
Jul 21, 2010, 08:03 AM
#50
Yep no question about it 
. All the people winning on Ohlins, Motons, JRZ, etc ALL are wrong! They could have saved money and just bought AMR because their support is so good. I mean they have lifetime warranty!!! People from WA going to SCCA nationals running Ohlins aren't up to date. We all should bow down to the greatness of AMR and heed to non existent track results. I mean come to think of it I haven't seen an AMR even place at any event...Funny thing is the people even on this forum who once actually raced on them moved on to other brands.......
Sorry I don't drink the AMR koolaid. Comparing them to superior coilovers and throwing around outlandish claims with no conclusive data is comical. I really tried hard to not comment. I won't even go into some things known about their shocks...quick search on the internet or other forums can quickly bring some things to light.
. All the people winning on Ohlins, Motons, JRZ, etc ALL are wrong! They could have saved money and just bought AMR because their support is so good. I mean they have lifetime warranty!!! People from WA going to SCCA nationals running Ohlins aren't up to date. We all should bow down to the greatness of AMR and heed to non existent track results. I mean come to think of it I haven't seen an AMR even place at any event...Funny thing is the people even on this forum who once actually raced on them moved on to other brands.......Sorry I don't drink the AMR koolaid. Comparing them to superior coilovers and throwing around outlandish claims with no conclusive data is comical. I really tried hard to not comment. I won't even go into some things known about their shocks...quick search on the internet or other forums can quickly bring some things to light.
Jul 21, 2010, 09:06 AM
#51
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Does anyone know what shocks/struts the coilovers cheaper than $2k use? Do they use something of their own design or something from the manufacturers that have been doing this for decades like Koni/Bilstein? Or something ripped off?
You can get good Koni double adjustable strut inserts (8611) for about $700 a pair and double adjustable shocks (3012) for about $1k a pair (retail). Add springs and it's already approaching $2k and that's without any design for the application, fixturing, materials or labor for the strut housings. And then companies usually like to stay in business so add profit. That's over $3k and those are the "good" double adjustables, the next step up in the Koni lineup (2817, 8212) doubles the cost of the whole package.
You can get good Koni double adjustable strut inserts (8611) for about $700 a pair and double adjustable shocks (3012) for about $1k a pair (retail). Add springs and it's already approaching $2k and that's without any design for the application, fixturing, materials or labor for the strut housings. And then companies usually like to stay in business so add profit. That's over $3k and those are the "good" double adjustables, the next step up in the Koni lineup (2817, 8212) doubles the cost of the whole package.
Jul 21, 2010, 10:34 AM
#52
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Does anyone know what shocks/struts the coilovers cheaper than $2k use? Do they use something of their own design or something from the manufacturers that have been doing this for decades like Koni/Bilstein? Or something ripped off?
You can get good Koni double adjustable strut inserts (8611) for about $700 a pair and double adjustable shocks (3012) for about $1k a pair (retail). Add springs and it's already approaching $2k and that's without any design for the application, fixturing, materials or labor for the strut housings. And then companies usually like to stay in business so add profit. That's over $3k and those are the "good" double adjustables, the next step up in the Koni lineup (2817, 8212) doubles the cost of the whole package.
You can get good Koni double adjustable strut inserts (8611) for about $700 a pair and double adjustable shocks (3012) for about $1k a pair (retail). Add springs and it's already approaching $2k and that's without any design for the application, fixturing, materials or labor for the strut housings. And then companies usually like to stay in business so add profit. That's over $3k and those are the "good" double adjustables, the next step up in the Koni lineup (2817, 8212) doubles the cost of the whole package.
Jul 21, 2010, 04:07 PM
#54
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Haha WAY more PC.
As I said before, I see three distinct levels of performance when it comes to coils, and really there are only two of those levels that are applicable to the members of this forum.
Not many here NEED to win races to earn a paycheck, nor do many here even drive their cars like they were meant to be driven. Now taking into account that most of us don't need to make the jump into the 3-5k category, what is good (obviously as good as it can get) for the average tuner who is willing to drop 2k on something.
That's kinda where I had meant this thread to go, what are peoples experiences on suspensions attainable by mortals.
As I said before, I see three distinct levels of performance when it comes to coils, and really there are only two of those levels that are applicable to the members of this forum.
Not many here NEED to win races to earn a paycheck, nor do many here even drive their cars like they were meant to be driven. Now taking into account that most of us don't need to make the jump into the 3-5k category, what is good (obviously as good as it can get) for the average tuner who is willing to drop 2k on something.
That's kinda where I had meant this thread to go, what are peoples experiences on suspensions attainable by mortals.
Jul 21, 2010, 10:35 PM
#55
. Or for that matter a shock dyno test that is conducted by an external company who does not have any associations with any of the manufacturers in the test and thus do a truly objective test (opps, there went half those car magazines/shop tests).At the end of the day, I've never understood why these threads on this forum always end up this way. The guys that need the 5k coils to be competitive aren't going to be on EvoM asking this question and will run whatever system their sponsors tell them to run.
Last edited by codgi; Jul 21, 2010 at 10:45 PM.
Jul 21, 2010, 11:07 PM
#56
Yes and lap times would be part of the comparison you'd do, but when have you ever seen a lap time test done blind so we can see the true results? . Or for that matter a shock dyno test that is conducted by an external company who does not have any associations with any of the manufacturers in the test and thus do a truly objective test (opps, there went half those car magazines/shop tests).
At the end of the day, I've never understood why these threads on this forum always end up this way. The guys that need the 5k coils to be competitive aren't going to be on EvoM asking this question and will run whatever system their sponsors tell them to run.
. Or for that matter a shock dyno test that is conducted by an external company who does not have any associations with any of the manufacturers in the test and thus do a truly objective test (opps, there went half those car magazines/shop tests).At the end of the day, I've never understood why these threads on this forum always end up this way. The guys that need the 5k coils to be competitive aren't going to be on EvoM asking this question and will run whatever system their sponsors tell them to run.
I'll be sure to post up how much the lap times improve with the new shocks.
The improvement you see from a stock strut/spring combo to a cheap coilover... is once again when you move from the cheapies to the REAL shocks.
"I think its funny" when people try to justify buying a Walmart bicycle because they aren't going to use it to go off jumps or go downhill. Its still a POS and YES there is a difference...even if you're just "riding around." Don't try and justify being a cheap *** when it comes to buying parts for your car.
Jul 22, 2010, 02:06 AM
#58
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I'll run whatever gets me around the track in the least amount of time. I know that a 1k dollar shock will not perform like a set of Ohlins, AST's, or JRZ's... It was in the budget to get what I got. The difference is that I know my Pro-c's will not and cannot perform with the DFV's, 5x00's, or the RS's. Period.
I'll be sure to post up how much the lap times improve with the new shocks.
The improvement you see from a stock strut/spring combo to a cheap coilover... is once again when you move from the cheapies to the REAL shocks.
"I think its funny" when people try to justify buying a Walmart bicycle because they aren't going to use it to go off jumps or go downhill. Its still a POS and YES there is a difference...even if you're just "riding around." Don't try and justify being a cheap *** when it comes to buying parts for your car.
I'll be sure to post up how much the lap times improve with the new shocks.
The improvement you see from a stock strut/spring combo to a cheap coilover... is once again when you move from the cheapies to the REAL shocks.
"I think its funny" when people try to justify buying a Walmart bicycle because they aren't going to use it to go off jumps or go downhill. Its still a POS and YES there is a difference...even if you're just "riding around." Don't try and justify being a cheap *** when it comes to buying parts for your car.
Jul 22, 2010, 08:19 AM
#59
Ohlins DFV with Gerrard spec valving. Absolutely incredible compared to stock Bilstiens. The biggest difference is bump recovery, where the stock Bilstiens made the car feel as if it 'drifted' after bump recovery, where the Ohlins are completely controllable, keeping the tires in contact with the road much much getter.
However, as Dbsears said, they're f**kin expensive, and unless you plan on doing more than the DD, I wouldn't suggest getting them. If you're just looking to lower the car, go with springs.
However, as Dbsears said, they're f**kin expensive, and unless you plan on doing more than the DD, I wouldn't suggest getting them. If you're just looking to lower the car, go with springs.
Jul 22, 2010, 12:30 PM
#60
SCCA SP NORPAC DIV Champion on AMR
Leading the ORG SCCA RX Championship in PA this year on AMR (won every race so far)
SCCA CA RX National Challenge winner 2010, finished 2nd in the National Championship (blew an IC hose) on AMR
There are several Solo and Road Race guys winning on AMR as well.
Never drink the cool-aid. Nobody should. But don't be a jerk either. Just because YOU don't know, doesn't make it so. Like many newer setups on the market, many of us don't tout our findings until we have 1000s of miles under them.
That being said.... There are plenty of guys winning races on other suspension too. DMS is a great setup if you are cool spending over $5000 and the Ohlins rock as well, again, if you are into the $7500 suspension packages.
But read closer, FOR THE MONEY, there isn't a better deal, I think, than the AMR. And by that I mean from the $1500 - $4000 price range.
Scott