Introducing Fortune Auto Dreadnaught Coilovers *NEW* @ IIR!
Jul 6, 2011, 06:47 AM
#16
from the shock dyno posted above you can tell the first 3 turns don't really do anything as far as adjustmet goes. unfortunatly, the data shown has been avaraged out so you miss all the good informationg that truely tells you if the coilovers are good or not. to truely understand how good a set of coilovers are, you need a none modified/avaraged shock dyno sheet like the one below
P.S. the coilovers in the above shock dyno sheet are horrible.
P.S. the coilovers in the above shock dyno sheet are horrible.
Jul 6, 2011, 08:47 AM
#17
Um. They sell these as "compression adjustable"?! That leaves two possibilities: (1) the plot is upside-down and these things have the most idiotic rebound-to-compression damping I've seen or (2) the bleeder adjustment really only affects rebound. I would hope that it's the latter, which would be a step in the right direction for Asian shocks, although, like Touge, I'd like to see a complete plot or a football before saying much more.
Jul 6, 2011, 10:59 AM
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from the shock dyno posted above you can tell the first 3 turns don't really do anything as far as adjustmet goes. unfortunatly, the data shown has been avaraged out so you miss all the good informationg that truely tells you if the coilovers are good or not. to truely understand how good a set of coilovers are, you need a none modified/avaraged shock dyno sheet like the one below
P.S. the coilovers in the above shock dyno sheet are horrible.
P.S. the coilovers in the above shock dyno sheet are horrible.
TougeGod7 so you really where waiting for this graph to bash it I assume?
Not sure why the graph posted is not to your standards? What exactly are you looking for in the graph? What kind of graph would you like posted?
The PVP plot that was posted is pretty much the industry standard and most professional teams utilize PVP plots for analysis and information.
It is true that the first couple of compression adjustments to not yield much force changes but again this is not a Moton or JRZ shock. However there is nothing wrong with that shock dyno. The data on the dyno is also not trying "hide" anything. It shows all 4 quadrants just fine and its a sweep dyno showing the rebound adjustments through the shocks range.
The fact that many high end shock manufactures use PVP plots kind of has me confused as to say why you think this dyno is "hiding" something
Below is a dyno of a AST 4300 and you guessed it they use PVP plots just like Fortune.
As many of you know a shock dyno is used as a tool . That being said its not the end all or be all as some people might think it is.
We extensively use a shock dyno at our facility on a daily basis for research and development purposes, matching shocks and rebuilding them.
What people fail to understand is that everybody has a different opinion on what a proper shock dyno should look like. Unlike lets say an engine dyno there is no definite right or wrong graph.
Yes its true you can determine whether a shock is digressive or progressive and you can clearly determine rebound and compression characteristics.
However there are a lot of components in determining the correct valving including performance at the track, comfort on the street, and offering a useable range of damping to achieve the end goal. Essentially what I am trying to say is that there is no right or wrong shock dyno. This is where the controversy lies. We have countless customers and racers that swear by our shocks. It is easy to look at a dyno graph and mis interpret it.
Jul 6, 2011, 11:02 AM
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Um. They sell these as "compression adjustable"?! That leaves two possibilities: (1) the plot is upside-down and these things have the most idiotic rebound-to-compression damping I've seen or (2) the bleeder adjustment really only affects rebound. I would hope that it's the latter, which would be a step in the right direction for Asian shocks, although, like Touge, I'd like to see a complete plot or a football before saying much more.
Jul 6, 2011, 11:22 AM
#20
Of the two options, that was the one that made more sense. Even your classic Asian shock doesn't have more compression than rebound. And it's actually good news, since that means that the adjuster is changing low-speed rebound, exactly as most people want in a single-adjustable. So why the heck are they advertised as compression adjustable?
Jul 6, 2011, 11:30 AM
#21
Your first paragraph was great and ended well, too:
So what the heck possessed you to open the very next paragraph with:
High road, dude. And that means no inferences about other people's motives.
And now I'll respond to the rest of what you wrote.
Yes, many manufacturers and vendors give out averaged force-by-velocity plots, as opposed to the raw data. In the case of known companies, such as Koni, Bilstein, Ohlins, etc, you know that you can trust the averaged plots; those companies are known to have little to no problem with hysteresis.
In contrast, besides having rather weird valving, most if not all of the stuff coming out of Taiwan and Mainland China is equally known to have serious problems with hysteresis, so asking for the raw plots, instead of just the averaged (and smoothed, I'll bet) plots is completely reasonable.
You have to earn the respect that is shown by people taking an averaged plot as being representative of the shock's behavior. Fortune hasn't (in my mind, at least) come even close to earning that respect. So I join Touge in asking for raw plots or footballs before saying much about these new products.
- Jtoby
And now I'll respond to the rest of what you wrote.
Yes, many manufacturers and vendors give out averaged force-by-velocity plots, as opposed to the raw data. In the case of known companies, such as Koni, Bilstein, Ohlins, etc, you know that you can trust the averaged plots; those companies are known to have little to no problem with hysteresis.
In contrast, besides having rather weird valving, most if not all of the stuff coming out of Taiwan and Mainland China is equally known to have serious problems with hysteresis, so asking for the raw plots, instead of just the averaged (and smoothed, I'll bet) plots is completely reasonable.
You have to earn the respect that is shown by people taking an averaged plot as being representative of the shock's behavior. Fortune hasn't (in my mind, at least) come even close to earning that respect. So I join Touge in asking for raw plots or footballs before saying much about these new products.
- Jtoby
Jul 6, 2011, 11:59 AM
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Your first paragraph was great and ended well, too:
So what the heck possessed you to open the very next paragraph with:
High road, dude. And that means no inferences about other people's motives.
And now I'll respond to the rest of what you wrote.
Yes, many manufacturers and vendors give out averaged force-by-velocity plots, as opposed to the raw data. In the case of known companies, such as Koni, Bilstein, Ohlins, etc, you know that you can trust the averaged plots; those companies are known to have little to no problem with hysteresis.
In contrast, besides having rather weird valving, most if not all of the stuff coming out of Taiwan and Mainland China is equally known to have serious problems with hysteresis, so asking for the raw plots, instead of just the averaged (and smoothed, I'll bet) plots is completely reasonable.
You have to earn the respect that is shown by people taking an averaged plot as being representative of the shock's behavior. Fortune hasn't (in my mind, at least) come even close to earning that respect. So I join Touge in asking for raw plots or footballs before saying much about these new products.
- Jtoby
So what the heck possessed you to open the very next paragraph with:
High road, dude. And that means no inferences about other people's motives.
And now I'll respond to the rest of what you wrote.
Yes, many manufacturers and vendors give out averaged force-by-velocity plots, as opposed to the raw data. In the case of known companies, such as Koni, Bilstein, Ohlins, etc, you know that you can trust the averaged plots; those companies are known to have little to no problem with hysteresis.
In contrast, besides having rather weird valving, most if not all of the stuff coming out of Taiwan and Mainland China is equally known to have serious problems with hysteresis, so asking for the raw plots, instead of just the averaged (and smoothed, I'll bet) plots is completely reasonable.
You have to earn the respect that is shown by people taking an averaged plot as being representative of the shock's behavior. Fortune hasn't (in my mind, at least) come even close to earning that respect. So I join Touge in asking for raw plots or footballs before saying much about these new products.
- Jtoby
Back to the dyno graphs. We really have nothing to hide. We post everything out in the open and are very proud of the product. The PVP plot that we post is for a few reasons.
There is no one dyno graph (cvp, pvp, ro/cc, co/rc) that is better then the other. The
First off PVP plots are probably the best overall indicator of the way a shock rides. Is the information perfect? Well none of the data graphs are.
Not sure what you mean by a foot ball graph? I am assuming you want a CVP graph to observe hysteresis of the shock? I can post that up no problem. Our shock tech is on Vacation until Friday. I will gladly post it then.
Jul 6, 2011, 12:05 PM
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To further add to this, our shock materials are mostly sourced from Taiwan. Many of the piston internal parts are sourced from the USA and Germany. In June of last year we started building our shocks in house. So technically our shocks are not your typical Taiwanese shock and definitely not a mainland Chinese shock. That is probably why our valving is very different from the rest of the Asian cookie cutter shocks that one can easily find out there.
For the amount of R&D involved, testing, ability to re-valve or rebuild here in Richmond VA we are a pretty logical choice for someone that wants a customizable and serviceable shock for an economical price.
I understand we are not as known or accomplished as Koni, Bilstein or Ohlins. That is why we try to be as innovative as we can and have created a niche market at the same time. We are the only company to my knowledge that offers the product that we have for the price that we do. In the end if someone insists on buying a Ohlins or AST shock then they have made an excellent choice. They are not our competition and not the market we are going after.
Cheers
Terry
For the amount of R&D involved, testing, ability to re-valve or rebuild here in Richmond VA we are a pretty logical choice for someone that wants a customizable and serviceable shock for an economical price.
I understand we are not as known or accomplished as Koni, Bilstein or Ohlins. That is why we try to be as innovative as we can and have created a niche market at the same time. We are the only company to my knowledge that offers the product that we have for the price that we do. In the end if someone insists on buying a Ohlins or AST shock then they have made an excellent choice. They are not our competition and not the market we are going after.
Cheers
Terry
Last edited by terry@f; Jul 6, 2011 at 12:14 PM.
Jul 6, 2011, 12:07 PM
#24
Cool. We're back on track.
By "football," I mean the four-quadrant, force-by-position plot. They aren't the best for hysteresis, but they can sometimes reveal evidence of stiction that others miss. Un-averaged force-by-velocity is the best for hysteresis and that's what I'd like to see the most. (Brand new shocks rarely have stiction issues, anyway; those show up later.) If you all fixed the hysteresis issues that the 500s had, then the new items look pretty good. I would have liked to see an even flatter (i.e., more digressive) curve for compression, but that might be too much to ask for the price.
And, seriously: send the message back to the vendor that simultaneously saying that a shock is "compression adjustable" and putting out plots that show that the adjuster only affects rebound is a great way to make people like me (and, possibly, Touge) really wary.
By "football," I mean the four-quadrant, force-by-position plot. They aren't the best for hysteresis, but they can sometimes reveal evidence of stiction that others miss. Un-averaged force-by-velocity is the best for hysteresis and that's what I'd like to see the most. (Brand new shocks rarely have stiction issues, anyway; those show up later.) If you all fixed the hysteresis issues that the 500s had, then the new items look pretty good. I would have liked to see an even flatter (i.e., more digressive) curve for compression, but that might be too much to ask for the price.
And, seriously: send the message back to the vendor that simultaneously saying that a shock is "compression adjustable" and putting out plots that show that the adjuster only affects rebound is a great way to make people like me (and, possibly, Touge) really wary.
Jul 6, 2011, 12:10 PM
#25
To further add to this, our shock materials are mostly sourced from Taiwan. Many of the piston internal parts are sourced from the USA and Germany. In June of last year we started building our shocks in house. So technically our shocks are not your typical Taiwanese shock and definitely not a mainland Chinese shock. That is probably why our valving is very different from the rest of the Asian cookie cutter shocks that one can easily find out there.
Jul 7, 2011, 06:34 AM
#26
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Jul 12, 2011, 09:21 AM
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Jul 14, 2011, 07:45 AM
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Jul 18, 2011, 08:20 PM
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Jul 19, 2011, 11:46 AM
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